Episode 407 - Patience

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy, fashion

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Speaker 1: act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness.

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Speaker 1: Hello

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Speaker 2: and welcome to awesome etiquette

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Speaker 1: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On

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Speaker 2: today's show, we take your questions on contributing to a trip as a gift,

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Speaker 2: fielding rude messages from patients asking for a father's blessing

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Speaker 1: after the wedding

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Speaker 2: ceremony and thanking friends for letting you live with them

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Speaker 1: for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about voicing concerns about pets you are pet sitting for to the owner

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Speaker 2: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript on punctuality and patience.

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Speaker 1: All that's coming up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah,

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm dan post Senning

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Speaker 2: and I'm lizzie Post

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Speaker 1: and how's it going this fine day lizzie Post?

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, we've had like spring came late. I feel like it's been rainy and gross out but kind of nice

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Speaker 2: because it's not like hot and muggy,

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Speaker 1: but

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Speaker 2: no, it's been a busy bee little work work week. I feel like because it's like each day it's just before. I know it it's like 2 30 then 4 30 then 5 30 it's like, okay, gotta call it quits and like get the dogs out for the walk and go do the things and now it's time for bed, Wake up. Here we go again.

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Speaker 2: It's I just, there's been so many little moving things happening at Emily Post. It's it feels very jazzed. It

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Speaker 1: does. It's like we're, we picked up momentum over the course of the spring. I was

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Speaker 1: saying to you the other day, it's like a Calvin and Hobbes cartoon and I'll take some of our listeners way back to the book about summertime. The days are just packed,

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Speaker 2: the days are just packed. It's such a good collection.

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Speaker 2: Can I tell

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Speaker 1: a story about summer days?

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Speaker 2: Please please do.

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Speaker 1: So yesterday we're recording this on the 23rd, so I guess yesterday was the day after the solstice, but there was still very long days and my girls have been very excited. We've been talking a lot about the days getting longer and shorter. And for my father, the solstice is a

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Speaker 1: a big event twice a year. It's an excuse to give him a call and we kind of celebrate solstices together

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Speaker 1: And it's pretty common for us to shoot off some fireworks on the solstice. And I had been thinking about it periodically leading up to the 21st and I ultimately decided it just wasn't gonna work out. There was enough going on. The days were just packed that we would talk about the solstice at dinner, but that would be the end of it. I'd give gramps a call.

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Speaker 1: My eldest daughter made me so proud. She requested fireworks.

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Speaker 2: We

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Speaker 1: played with sparklers and the three year old was saying

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Speaker 1: the sparkle ones are for for low and then we do the bang ones that go up. She was starting to build the display in her mind. The little three year old

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Speaker 2: pitter

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Speaker 1: patter, lizzie, post pitter patter. It was a very satisfying moment for a father and

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Speaker 2: the

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Speaker 1: grandparents next door heard them called, unfortunately got rained out, we ended up doing bubbles instead of fireworks, but it was an awesome solstice and I want to wish all of our listeners a happy solstice. I know this is coming out a week late on it,

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Speaker 2: but cherished holiday and a very summery one as we do actually start summer.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. Summer is on

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Speaker 2: summer is on lookout

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Speaker 2: dan. What else are you looking forward to this summer? I feel like you've, you've actually got some like seminar life back on your plate not to bring you back to work, but

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Speaker 1: I do. And you did because you start off by asking me about what I've got coming for the summer. I'm like, oh, I've got the first house guest we've had in two years coming. We're

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Speaker 2: going social,

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Speaker 1: but there's also a sort of a combined work in social one that I'm really looking forward to. I'm going to spend a week on an island called Star Island, a small island off the coast of Maine with an old victorian hotel and

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Speaker 1: the,

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Speaker 2: it sounds like the start of maybe a horror movie or like a ghost story movie, you know,

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Speaker 1: it could be think summer camp for adults

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Speaker 2: totally. Okay, no, now that's a different vibe. I got you.

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Speaker 1: They do all kinds of different things, the different events and weeks or extended stays at Star Island all have different themes and

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Speaker 1: Emily Post and etiquette are going to be the theme for a week there and I'll be giving lectures each morning. But the thing that is exciting for me is the whole family gets to come. So

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Speaker 1: all five of us will spend a week on Star Island and Anisha started to talk about it. She's looking forward to it. She wants to get hair extensions and we've got to get that done before we had the Star

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Speaker 2: Island,

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Speaker 1: she's

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Speaker 2: gotta get her purple and blue streaks going

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Speaker 1: and I know that the folks at Star Island have been promoting the week that's coming and that they've mentioned this podcast, not a bunch of informational mailings that have gone out to attendees. So this is an opportunity for me to say hello in advance to anybody that I'm gonna be meeting at Star Island in a couple of

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Speaker 2: weeks.

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Speaker 2: That's so awesome. I didn't even think about it that way, but I hope there are some start Island attendees who are listening and thinking of great etiquette questions to ask you and conversations to have, I'm quite jealous. I think this event sounds absolutely intriguing and um

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Speaker 2: stimulating, like, I feel like you're gonna come away from this having like

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Speaker 2: had a little brain trust on the topic of like etiquette and civility.

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Speaker 1: I think you and I are thinking about it in a very similar way. It's a really rich opportunity to

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Speaker 1: spend an extended period of time with a group of people that are interested. It's not a training environment, it's really an opportunity to lead discussions and talk about etiquette and social expectations, the role that they play in our lives. But I'm imagining some interesting discussions developing about

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Speaker 1: ethics, politics, morals. It's an exciting

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Speaker 1: prospect for me because those are discussions, I love to have,

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Speaker 2: oh to be a fly on those walls. I wish, I wish well when you get back you'll have to give us the full download and I'm sure we'll probably have to turn it into a post group segment because a whole week is going to stir up a lot of conversation.

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Speaker 1: I, I appreciate that you're looking forward to putting up with me when that happens.

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Speaker 2: Well until then, do you think we should carry on with our show and get to some questions.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a great idea. Let's do it,

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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily coast dot com. Leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kind that's 8028585463 or you can reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram. We're at Emily Post institute

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Speaker 2: and on facebook were awesome etiquette.

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Speaker 2: Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show.

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Speaker 1: Our first question this week is about a solo trip.

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Speaker 1: Hello lizzie and dan, thank you so much for all the work you put into this wonderful podcast. I've been a fan of Emily Post since I was a child and I truly appreciate your witty and modern approach to etiquette.

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Speaker 1: I'm a young single female who will be turning 30 next year.

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Speaker 1: I decided that for my birthday I want to cross an item off my bucket list and take a solo trip.

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Speaker 1: I have already started saving for this trip because I plan to do everything I have never done for frugality sake.

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Speaker 1: I plan to get a room at a really nice hotel, order room service, Check out all of the local museums, the best restaurants etcetera.

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Speaker 1: Every year. In the weeks leading up to my birthday, my family and friends asked me repeatedly what I want for my birthday and I truly don't need anything I know they're going to ask again next year.

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Speaker 1: I never volunteer gift ideas for myself but when people continuously ask me what I want for my birthday. Would it be rude to suggest a contribution to my trip as a gift suggestion.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate any and all feedback. Thank you in advance anonymous

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Speaker 2: Anonymous. Very cool. I love the sound of this. I did a big a big trip from a solo trip for my birthday and my 30th birthday and absolutely loved the experience. I went to a ranch out in Colorado. It was so much fun. I highly highly

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Speaker 2: recommend the solo trip.

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Speaker 1: It's such an exciting prospect.

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Speaker 2: It really really is. It really is. And what I think is really interesting about this is that it's really not uncommon for us to share gift ideas with our family and friends especially when they're asking. And that's a close enough relationship where it's it's the convenience of being direct about it is just so wonderful.

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Speaker 2: But if you're in a position where you you haven't usually entertained those conversations

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Speaker 2: and where it's a birthday dan. You and I are very used to encouraging people to make suggestions of a contribution towards something like an experience on a trip for something like a wedding. Or maybe it's a contribution towards a more expensive item for a baby or a new child being welcomed into the family.

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Speaker 2: And we don't hear the same request quite as often for birthdays. But we do get the question about cash as a birthday gift or putting money towards something as a birthday gift and the answer is always yes that's perfectly appropriate. How do you feel about it in this type of scenario where

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Speaker 2: it's it's sort of a direct ask coming as opposed to something that someone might say via word of mouth when they're R. S. V. P. Into a party or something like that.

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Speaker 1: I think the direct ask makes it so much easier to just tell them, like you say there's a certain convenience to that when when someone asks you you can respond and

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Speaker 1: I think that you can

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Speaker 1: moderate your tone as is always true how you do things matters when we're talking about etiquette. And

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Speaker 1: I think if you have a portion of your mind or your thinking on sharing your excitement and your enthusiasm for the thing that you're looking forward to and that's a component of you. Also

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Speaker 1: being explicit and letting them know that contributions towards that would be just wonderful and so appreciated and exactly what you would most want to get for your birthday. I think you're in really good shape. I think that like you that I'm really not concerned and it makes so much sense

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Speaker 1: practicality being the heart of good etiquette. I even want to make some room or some allowance for

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Speaker 1: initiating that discussion

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Speaker 1: again starting with that enthusiasm and excitement and and sharing of what your hopes are your expectations. Even what some of your planning is

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Speaker 1: maybe as a way

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Speaker 1: with very close friends and family to raise the topic or the subject.

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about people that have asked

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Speaker 1: in years prior and people who

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Speaker 1: you have a very reasonable expectation that they're going to be looking for something to get you, what do you think about that lizzie post?

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Speaker 2: It all rang true to me. Um I think it might feel a little different to make a suggestion of a contribution as opposed to,

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Speaker 2: oh there's this, you know, sweater from this site that I really love if if you're really looking for something that's been something that's been on my mind, you know?

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Speaker 2: But I can't find fault with it because I think it's something that people would be into doing. Like I do I do think a lot of people like appreciate the idea of being able to contribute to something like the type of trip that anonymous is going on

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Speaker 2: for me. I was thinking about the fact that often anonymous isn't interested in telling people a suggestion when this particular request comes and it's it's just asking about a gift for the birthday and I think that this would be really easy to slide in the language of, you know, this year. I actually do have something I was thinking about,

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Speaker 2: I'm going on this trip and I would love to do as many cool things as possible while I'm on it. So if there was

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Speaker 2: something you wanted to contribute to the trip, I would that would make such a wonderful gift this year. Like I feel like that could be delivered nicely. I don't know how well I did. You can tell me, but but I feel like you know, even for someone who doesn't engage this particular back and forth regularly, I think you could get there.

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Speaker 1: It sounded okay to me.

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Speaker 2: I like the

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Speaker 1: idea of using the word if

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Speaker 1: so that it's a conditional ask if you're looking for something to get me or if you're wondering about my birthday so that it's not a demand, it's not an expectation you're acknowledging

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Speaker 1: that it might or might not happen, that they may or may not even be looking for. That kind of a specific suggestion.

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Speaker 2: I

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Speaker 1: was wondering also about building out something like a registry or something that would let people know about specific things you were looking for. And that started to feel less comfortable to me. That started to feel like a step too far

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Speaker 1: for a birthday and I don't know why, but it just started to feel like it crossed some of those lines where

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Speaker 1: some people might not receive it in the way that you would intend it to be offered. And I like the idea of a conversational approach more

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Speaker 1: anonymous. I wish we had you on the phone. I'd ask you about exactly where you're hoping to go because one of my favorite things to talk about is travel

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Speaker 2: and

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Speaker 1: it's fun to travel but it's almost as much fun to think about a trip that's coming up. We wish you the best in the rest of your planning and hope our answer

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Speaker 2: helps

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Speaker 2: Have a happy 30

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Speaker 1: in a search that has continued for centuries, some far distant view with its promise of the unseen

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Speaker 1: and its promise of the unknown

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Speaker 1: has forever fathered the impulse

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Speaker 1: to seek for new things

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Speaker 1: in new places,

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Speaker 1: new Horizons.

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Speaker 2: Our next question is titled mean medical messages.

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Speaker 2: Hello as a nurse. The volume of messages patients are sending to their health care teams has gone up substantially and I am finding the incidences of impatient and aggressive messaging going up. For example, quote, I went to the lab but there was no insurance authorization exclamation point exclamation point And then in all caps

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Speaker 2: you are wasting my time with multiple exclamation points and quote and quote. You must have moved this appointment without asking now in all caps. I am mad exclamation point exclamation point, I had to wait for an hour. End quote.

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Speaker 2: Even though the appointment had not been moved

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Speaker 2: for reference, I work at a cancer center so patients are under a lot of stress and some shortness from patients is to be expected.

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Speaker 2: But I am finding and hearing more and more that health care workers are receiving physical and verbal abuse globally. And I'm wondering if you have a sample script that is kind but firm about not using this type of language or tone with the staff.

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Speaker 2: Would love your thoughts on college nurse on ecology. Nurse taking some heat.

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Speaker 1: Oh oncology nurse taking some heat. Thank you for your question. And I want to start off by just saying how sorry I am to hear this. It is

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Speaker 1: a really important reminder to me about how critical our basic civility is that no matter what's going on in the world, no matter what's going on in our personal lives that

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Speaker 1: we're accountable for the ways that we treat each other and that

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Speaker 1: when we don't

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Speaker 1: hold ourselves accountable when we are

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Speaker 1: uncivil and indecent that it impacts people and that it impacts people in really serious ways, both personally and professionally. The professional challenge here, I think adds an extra layer of complication to the situation.

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Speaker 1: Before I get into it. I also want to say that I've heard about this in other industries. I don't think this is necessarily unique to the health care field or profession, although I'm curious to hear that this is something that's being experienced by health care workers globally as well as here in the US.

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Speaker 2: It's I mean it's certainly been a couple of years with the pandemic and then we have the war in Ukraine and we have shortages and there's so much going on

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Speaker 2: that has been going on for an extended period of time now. I think it is really common to hear that people are more stressed dan. We know that stress often leads to more rudeness and oncology nurse taking some heat is feeling that right now.

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Speaker 2: And the answer isn't simply, oh we're all just more stressed, get used to it. Like it is on us to look to ourselves to find moments where we are mad and to take that deep breath and say there's another human on the other end of this. Let's see if if I can make something happen here as opposed to to going in, you know

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Speaker 2: Fists ready to fight face red and anger volume already at a 10 or 20 or 50 depending on what volume you're using.

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Speaker 1: I

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Speaker 2: know anger can feel really good to release it

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Speaker 2: And some I think one of the really um sad things that can be very true for a lot of people is that they are more willing to release it

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Speaker 2: on a stranger over the phone or in a message that they might not see a real person attached to or feel as connected if it's a phone, not, not like a face to face moment. And I know that these moments are happening face to face too. But I try to when I think about those really tense spaces and times

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Speaker 2: where people are likely to blow up big time or where I've blown up

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Speaker 2: big time at someone over something like a scheduling issue.

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Speaker 2: It does seem to help on the other end of it on the customer service end of it

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Speaker 2: to remember that it it really often is not you like and I know that's not just to not take responsibility if someone really did move an appointment on a patient like that's something worth taking responsibility for, that's not what happened in this case. But it can be so hard when it's coming at you. I feel like

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Speaker 2: to not take it personally and and I don't think just the advice of don't take it personally works. I think there are some things that can be, can be done here, but um dan, it just does. So it feels so common nowadays.

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Speaker 1: It does. And I'm reminded of those insurance commercials where there's a bad deed that happens that impacts the next person and then that impacts the next person until that negative chain of events is interrupted by somebody who makes an effort and

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Speaker 1: and stops that stress leading to rudeness, leading to more rudeness, leading to more rudeness.

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Speaker 1: And it is true that kind acts and generous acts can have the same impact on people and that it's not your responsibility to be that change agent all the time. But there are opportunities in our world to do that. And

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Speaker 1: I think

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Speaker 1: all of us can remind ourselves of that and look for those opportunities when they present themselves. Having said that, I also wanna be very clear at the start of this answer or relatively near the start of this answer that

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Speaker 1: any time you're feeling threatened that you want to keep an ear open for that and you don't have to listen to that. You can

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Speaker 1: call out what's going on and excuse yourself from the situation, if you feel in danger, either physically or psychologically and that can be a hard line to identify. Is this person angry about a situation? Are they angry at me? Is their anger about the situation translating to anger at me in a way that I do

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Speaker 1: don't feel safe or that I'm not responsible to this conversation anymore. Those can be tough questions to answer, but I want to give the permission that when those lines are crossed and when you feel that you've crossed that line, that it is okay to excuse yourself and it's okay to not just sit there and and receive and take that anger and abuse

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Speaker 2: dan. I also think that

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Speaker 2: because we're talking about

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Speaker 2: not like a social situation, but one where there is a facility involved, there's a hierarchy, there's a staff, I think that definitely taking this question to HR to managers, finding out what company policy is, where you do have backup to lean on.

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Speaker 2: Um or I don't want to call it like an escape hatch, but sort of an escape route away out. Um if you find yourself in this space, you are a worker and that needs to be protected too and getting the support from the team that you're on or the management to know what's expected of you from the organization and where the help points are when it crosses over to someone from

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Speaker 2: security needing to be involved or something like that that you're really clear and confident. Cause sometimes also when you're stressed out, it can be hard to remember exactly what the action plan is. Um, I know some places have it, you know, on like a laminated card near the telephones, um, that if you start to feel unsafe, here's what you do.

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Speaker 2: Um, and it might be that, that you try something like that, but getting support from the organization that you work for

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Speaker 2: on what's expected and and how you can be supported, I think is really important as well, just as that big overarching to all the etiquette that we might talk about the rest of the question.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. And I do want to talk a little bit about that etiquette. One thought that I have is about

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Speaker 1: effective ways to deescalate someone else's anger and you can't always do it. It's not always possible. But

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Speaker 1: sometimes just a little emotional empathy or support can completely change someone's perspective or frame of mind or even if it doesn't completely change it, it might shift it enough that you can actually do some business and get something productive out of the exchange.

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about a sample script, like I hear you and the best way for me to help you is if you could describe or tell me more about the situation that you take the focus

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Speaker 1: away from the emotional content and really acknowledge that. But then direct your future discussion back towards the details. The information that ostensibly they're trying to get or if they're just trying to deliver a message that you get that message clearly from them so that you can do the right thing with it.

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Speaker 2: I think that goes so right in line with the customer service, difficult client advice that we've given before, which is exactly as you said to sort of sympathize with the person, wow, I'm sorry. This is so frustrating. This is very unusual. I can understand how this would really impact you.

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Speaker 2: Things like that that that

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Speaker 2: allow the person to feel like they are being understood about what is going on. And then moving right on to the let's look at how I can help you with this. Like let's let's move to the forward of of getting this tidied up. There may still be some, I am so sorry that that this this means you'll have to wait another day or I am so sorry that this puts it in the afternoon when you wanted a morning appointment.

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Speaker 2: You can always apologize for

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Speaker 2: um whatever actions you're able to take that don't fully meet things. You can't, you don't have to do the apology that takes responsibility. You can do the apology that sympathizes with the fact that it wasn't the exact thing. I mean in a low stakes version of it, it's oh that color you wanted is out. Would you like a different color. You know,

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Speaker 2: the higher stakes is I needed this appointment yesterday and

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Speaker 2: the scheduling has been messed up. And the only thing you can do is say, I'm so I'm so sorry that this has happened and I understand that this is frustrating. Let's get you to the next best thing to move you forward so that you can get the help that you need.

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Speaker 2: But in addition because to the things that we want to say, right, those sympathetic and moving forward things, there are definitely things to avoid here that are very tempting when someone's being a jerk with you on the phone. It is like it is really tempting to tell them off or put them in their place,

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Speaker 2: even when it comes to saying things like there's no way that what you're describing could have like physically happened, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: And it could be so tempting to go there. What are some things that we should

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Speaker 1: avoid? Obviously you want to avoid matching them emotionally. You don't want to respond in kind with the same type of frustration or anger. So whatever you say that the classic advice

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Speaker 1: smile before you answer the phone, just take care of yourself emotionally so that you don't feel drawn into that place of grievance. That's gonna help a lot. But as far as the actual content of what you say,

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Speaker 1: if you can avoiding disagreeing with them explicitly is one way to allow them the space to to deescalate to stand

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Speaker 1: Back or to change direction. So if you're not saying something like that's impossible or you're just wrong about that or there's no way that could have happened or this system worked for 4000 other people, there must have been some input error on your

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Speaker 2: end.

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Speaker 1: All reasonable things for you to think to yourself very familiar, all might be true. And

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Speaker 1: I don't think any of them are going to get you to a better resolution of the call. And this is asking a lot of our oncology nurse taking some heat and her colleagues and peers and we recognize that this is not an easy situation to be dealing with either in

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Speaker 1: in terms of the intellectual content or the emotional content. And

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Speaker 1: it's why we start our answer to this question talking about the big picture, things that people are facing and about the world that we all live in and how we're going to craft it together to be a world that we can all inhabit

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Speaker 1: and feel well and whole and

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Speaker 1: like we're part of a functioning community and at some point

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Speaker 1: that's gonna require a lot of all of us because as as you pointed out, lizzie there there are a lot of natural stresses on us and we aren't able to control those all the time. It really is our reactions and responses that were in control of and that's that's not always easy. But

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Speaker 1: as my father once told me, whoever told you life would be easy and it's the condition that we're or at least many of us are operating in today.

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Speaker 2: Oncology nurse taking some heat. We hope that some of the things we discussed today are gonna help turn the temperature down.

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Speaker 2: And hopefully we hear a lot more about how people are

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Speaker 1: thanking you for the

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Speaker 2: incredible work that you and

00:28:08

Speaker 1: your team are doing. Each patient presents a different personality, different problems. And the nurse must bring comfort and assurance to the patient and the patient's family.

00:28:19

Speaker 1: And it is also important that she teach them to guard against future illness.

00:28:27

Speaker 1: Right?

00:28:32

Speaker 1: This question is about post ceremony permission

00:28:35

Speaker 2: high. If someone

00:28:36

Speaker 1: already got engaged without a long public engagement and got married and the groom didn't get a chance to ask the bride's father's permission to marry her before the wedding day after the ceremony was over but still wants to, what could he do

00:28:51

Speaker 1: other than apologizing for not asking his permission? I guess he couldn't ask for permission for something that's already been done. But maybe he could still ask for his blessing.

00:29:01

Speaker 1: Do you have any ideas for a post wedding way? He could handle this custom, which means a lot to the couple

00:29:07

Speaker 1: anonymous.

00:29:09

Speaker 2: Oh, anonymous. I like the blessing idea. And I do think that that would be the route to go. And I think

00:29:17

Speaker 2: I like I also just got to say I love it when you all answer your questions in your question because this is very much so one of those, I feel like if this is important to the couple then yes, they should go through with it. And that's saying, we know we can't ask for permission because we've already had the wedding and the ceremony,

00:29:37

Speaker 2: but we would really love to ask for your blessing. You know, we are so happy about this union, but having your blessing and hearing your blessing would really mean a lot to us

00:29:47

Speaker 2: and I feel like that would be an easy thing to do. But I don't think there's a ton of ceremony that would come with it. Maybe just pick a nice quiet, simple time to do it as opposed to like, you know,

00:29:57

Speaker 2: when everyone's

00:29:58

Speaker 2: gathered for a football game or something,

00:30:01

Speaker 1: we have definitely received a version of this question before and one of your,

00:30:07

Speaker 2: I couldn't remember,

00:30:08

Speaker 1: we have and and I'll tell you, I remember it because one of the podcast host on the mike right now had a very similar kind of issue.

00:30:17

Speaker 2: My gosh, I forgot about this. You're so right,

00:30:22

Speaker 1: fill

00:30:22

Speaker 2: everybody in dan. What happened? This

00:30:24

Speaker 1: was a big deal in my family and it

00:30:29

Speaker 1: is something that I think we talked about as I was not proposing engagement getting married, but after the wedding. No, I think for me it happened during the engagement, not after the ceremony

00:30:41

Speaker 2: engagement has already happened, but wedding has not.

00:30:44

Speaker 1: I asked to marry me before I talked to her parents about it.

00:30:49

Speaker 1: And

00:30:51

Speaker 1: when we told pooches parents that we were engaged, that I had proposed and she had said, yes, I was expecting that to be a joyous call, a really excited sharing of the news. And in many ways it was,

00:31:07

Speaker 1: but there was also some, some genuine disappointment and I would even acknowledge a little bit of sadness maybe from pooja's father in particular, that I had not

00:31:18

Speaker 1: gone through the process of formally asking his permission. And

00:31:23

Speaker 1: it was an interesting cross cultural etiquette situation.

00:31:29

Speaker 1: His parents experience of getting married was very different than hers and the ways that they met in the ways that pooch and I met were very different and they understood that very well. They also knew the work that I did and the tradition, the western etiquette tradition that I write about and teach about and

00:31:49

Speaker 1: it had been their understanding that asking the bride's father's permission was part of that and was the component of the western tradition that was analogous to the indian traditions that they had been a part of previously,

00:32:02

Speaker 1: that they were hoping would happen. And we're looking forward to

00:32:05

Speaker 2: and that you in particular who worked for a company who often understands customs and things like that might might have cut in on this. Was that a part of it.

00:32:13

Speaker 1: Yes,

00:32:13

Speaker 2: yeah. I had

00:32:15

Speaker 1: talked to your father about it actually. I didn't talk to your father about it beforehand. But I talked to your father as the issue came up, as that disappointment was expressed and

00:32:26

Speaker 1: I talked with

00:32:27

Speaker 1: Peter about what had happened and lizzie, can you give the accurate and detailed version of the story of what happened when Peter talked to your mother's father?

00:32:36

Speaker 2: Yes. So a long time ago there was a point where I thought I might be getting engaged and I asked my dad if being asked for a blessing or permission was something that mattered to him.

00:32:49

Speaker 2: And he said, I'll tell you what your grandfather, my mother's father said to me and I said, oh, what's that? Like you've been, you've been through this, huh? And he said

00:33:01

Speaker 2: that my mother was her own woman and that she was the only person who could give permission for her to be married and therefore he should just ask her directly.

00:33:11

Speaker 2: And that, that was, that was the story I got at least of both. My, my maternal grandfather's perspective and then a perspective my dad ended up adopting. Um,

00:33:22

Speaker 1: that was very much the sentiment that your father shared with me. And it was very much the way I thought about it. I had debated talking to

00:33:31

Speaker 1: his father, put his parents about

00:33:33

Speaker 1: my intention to propose and had decided that I really wanted to ask her that that was where I put the locus of the decision making and that was the relationship that I cared the most about and it just didn't feel quite right to me to be checking in with her parents about whether or not that was an okay

00:33:52

Speaker 1: conversation to be having or discussion to be having.

00:33:55

Speaker 2: And to be fair knowing puja as a very independent progressive woman. I mean we aren't talking about someone who talks about very like patriarchal traditional society as being her go to goal in life and there are a lot of women for whom that is true and it's it's a,

00:34:13

Speaker 2: it's what they care about. But for pooja, she has never been expressing herself that way, at least didn't make

00:34:21

Speaker 2: that side of a personality known if it was there and I don't think it was. But so you were really going off of what you know of the person who's going to be answering the question. I felt like

00:34:31

Speaker 1: yes and because as parents expressed some hurt about it, I had a discussion with them that was about that perspective, that it was really important to me that this was a decision that we made, that she felt independent and

00:34:45

Speaker 1: recognized making it and that my intention was not to exclude them, that their blessing and involvement matter deeply to me that they were the first people we called when we got off the mountain and we're back into cell phone range and could share the news and that I was

00:35:02

Speaker 1: so excited to share the news with them and that I would like to ask for their blessing and I really like that distinction between blessing and permission. I think for some people it's a really important difference for some people it's not, but for some people it's a really important difference. And

00:35:17

Speaker 1: I felt very comfortable asking for their blessing and it was granted. But it involved

00:35:24

Speaker 1: an acknowledgement of where that miscommunication, where that difference in expectations had come from. I don't think you always need that, but I can't read this kind of question and not go back in my mind to that time in my life. And I can picture the places I sat when I had those conversations on the phone and

00:35:43

Speaker 2: I wonder if you had called a different uncle or on if you would have gotten a different answer and encouragement to go ask them possible. And

00:35:53

Speaker 1: returning to the thought now as a dad who thinks a lot about his girls and what their lives will look like and now his little boy and what his life will look like.

00:36:04

Speaker 1: And one of the things that I really hope for them is that they find and have significant and meaningful relationships in their lives.

00:36:12

Speaker 1: I wonder how I would feel about this question now and if I would feel even more differently in 10 years or 15 years.

00:36:21

Speaker 2: let's check in. Let's hope the podcast goes that long guys.

00:36:27

Speaker 2: I mean right now Anisha still wants to marry you. So I think we're in good stead. Anna and Jasper, Jasper had seen Matt take anna. This is my sister and my nephew. Matt took anna out for a date for her birthday and within the week he said, I want to go just me and mom to dinner and mom,

00:36:51

Speaker 2: you have to, there was some article of clothing she had to wear and she had to carry a purse.

00:36:56

Speaker 2: Like that was a big part of it. But it was cute. They had a date but little kids man, that, that under five, they just wanna marry their mom and their dad. It's so cute.

00:37:07

Speaker 1: While I wouldn't necessarily want any potential partner or every potential partner to come and and ask me if it's okay

00:37:16

Speaker 1: being included and figuring out ways to involve

00:37:20

Speaker 1: parents that have close relationships with kids and families. Um whatever form they take I think is really advisable. I think this question is well considered and there might have been opportunities along the way, but I don't think that they're lost. I think that there is always time to tell family that they matter that they're significant in your life and that that you want them included and you don't want them to feel like they've been ignored or their expectations have been trampled upon. And I think that it's never too late. It's never too late to do that work and I would really encourage anonymous to to make that effort anonymous because we haven't said it yet. A great big congratulations

00:38:00

Speaker 2: And we

00:38:01

Speaker 1: hope our answer helps and we're confident that you have a bright future ahead.

00:38:06

Speaker 1: Sue

00:38:07

Speaker 2: honey. Oh, Larry. What's the matter?

00:38:10

Speaker 1: It's

00:38:10

Speaker 2: the folks say

00:38:12

Speaker 1: we

00:38:12

Speaker 2: had a terrible

00:38:13

Speaker 1: scene.

00:38:15

Speaker 2: They don't approve. They say I'm too young.

00:38:18

Speaker 1: Well, we're the ones that are

00:38:19

Speaker 2: getting married. Not your folks.

00:38:21

Speaker 2: I read somewhere that a marriage without parents approval has two strikes on it from the start.

00:38:28

Speaker 2: I don't know Larry,

00:38:33

Speaker 2: our next question is titled apartment appreciation.

00:38:38

Speaker 2: Dear lizzie and dan. I have fallen on hard times recently and am in between jobs. My friends are letting me stay with them at no cost until I get back on my feet

00:38:49

Speaker 2: other than cleaning up after myself and helping out around the apartment. What would be a good way to thank them Now when I don't have much financially,

00:38:59

Speaker 2: I intend to take them out to dinner when I have a job again. But I would like to do something before then. Thanks. B

00:39:06

Speaker 1: b

00:39:07

Speaker 1: Well, first of all, good luck on the job search and we're sorry to hear that you've fallen on hard times, but we're delighted to hear that you have support around you that you have people in your life who are willing and ready to help and that that help is available and forthcoming until your

00:39:25

Speaker 1: back on your feet in a way that you feel confident and secure.

00:39:30

Speaker 1: I also really appreciate the way you're thinking about this and the approach that you're taking and

00:39:36

Speaker 1: there is certainly no financial cost to expressing gratitude. Well, and I would start off by not underestimating the power and impact of your words that there are lots of things that you can do actions you can take that will show your gratitude.

00:39:52

Speaker 1: And in the meantime, letting someone know by thanking them and being explicit about that is really important and you don't need to

00:40:01

Speaker 1: overdo it. You don't need to follow them around every day. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I really appreciate, I don't know what I'd do without you, but being sure that in a quiet moment when you've got someone's full attention that it registers and that you clearly say,

00:40:15

Speaker 1: I really appreciate everything that you've done for me at this time and I'm really grateful to have a friend like you in my life who's willing to put me up or whatever it is that they've specifically and actively done to support you that you name it and thank them for it. I think that's the place I'd start.

00:40:31

Speaker 2: Absolutely. And I think you've already said it dan, when you said that the actions you take are also going to be important and this is a time where I do feel like

00:40:41

Speaker 2: the doubling up of the words and the actions supporting them. I think a lot of people get into this situation and they think, oh I'll mow the lawn and I'll do everybody's laundry and I'll take out the trash and I'll do all these things that will make it like less of a lift having me around here less, you know, less of an extra person and more of a help.

00:41:04

Speaker 2: And sometimes that can wane after a few weeks of actually doing those things or sometimes you say you're going to get to something and then these job interviews start lining up and you want to, you know, also have whatever fun you can have in life, you know, and exercise that. So maybe some social things come up

00:41:22

Speaker 2: and then the lawn hasn't been mowed or the garbage hasn't been taken out because you haven't been around or things like that can happen. So I think the coupling of

00:41:30

Speaker 2: both the gratitude but also stating some of the things are discussing some of the things that, that they would find helpful or that you would love to offer to do and making sure that you not only like follow up on them but do them

00:41:45

Speaker 2: like to the best of your ability. I think those are things that really can be huge impacts on spaces. I feel like I remember I had a roommate once whose boyfriend spent a lot of time at our house and we never charged him rent, but he was really living with us

00:42:02

Speaker 2: and he would mow the lawn and he did such a good job of it. And it was so

00:42:08

Speaker 2: delightful. It really was like you never even thought about the fact that the guy wasn't paying to be there. Like it never bothered me one bit because he was just so delightful to be around.

00:42:20

Speaker 1: I love the idea of doing those things consistently looking for your opportunities to do them. And also asking the person specifically what would be helpful if you could generate a list of the mo the lawn or the due to this or that that what would that list look like

00:42:35

Speaker 2: and encourage them, right? Because some people might be like, oh you don't have to mow the lawn,

00:42:39

Speaker 2: but like you get into living with someone for three or four months. And then it kind of is really nice when they do things like help out by mowing the lawn. And that's if there's a lot of it's apartment living obviously might be something else. But it it is it they can often be far more delightful than getting cash for the exchange. You know what I mean?

00:42:58

Speaker 1: The other thought that I had about this one is that communication I think is gonna be key to this relationship going smoothly. And I think a component of that communication is keeping someone informed about what steps you're taking or what your progress looks like toward

00:43:15

Speaker 1: finding a place that you can pay for or contributing in some way or finding a job, whatever those steps are. However you've mapped that course of action out for yourself.

00:43:24

Speaker 1: It's not that you need to report on it to someone, but you want to include them in your process. So they have some idea of what your expectations for yourself are and how, how things are moving along in that way, so that they're not responsible for asking you questions about it, trying to figure out what's going on with you,

00:43:43

Speaker 1: but that you make an effort to be open and share some of that because they've made an effort to really support you and

00:43:49

Speaker 1: there is some cost to them to doing that and honoring that involves sharing with them what you're doing to not be leaning on that forever

00:43:57

Speaker 2: dan. I couldn't agree more clear communication and I think consistent communication is going to be really, really helpful on that front

00:44:06

Speaker 2: be it sounds like you are both grateful for your situation and really thinking of ways to make the best of it and especially the best of of any impact you might be having on the household and that is just such an amazing place to be coming from. I bet your friends are really glad to be able to help you out. We certainly hope that our answer helps.

00:44:27

Speaker 1: Yeah,

00:44:28

Speaker 1: thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram, we are at Emily Post institute

00:44:49

Speaker 1: and on facebook we are awesome etiquette. Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the

00:44:56

Speaker 2: show.

00:45:00

Speaker 1: Mhm.

00:45:02

Speaker 2: If your loving awesome etiquette, please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ad free version of the show, access to bonus questions and content and access to our live calls plus you'll feel great knowing that you helped to keep awesome etiquette on the air

00:45:24

Speaker 2: to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you so much for your support.

00:45:29

Speaker 2: It's

00:45:30

Speaker 1: time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover today. We have feedback from d on cash gifts in episode 405 deer, awesome etiquette team. I was happy to hear the question about how much is the right amount of cash to give at a wedding when budget is a concern.

00:45:49

Speaker 2: I got

00:45:49

Speaker 1: married a few weeks ago, congratulations

00:45:53

Speaker 2: and

00:45:54

Speaker 1: About 70% of our guests flew in from out of state, which was a significant cost for many. We also requested that our wedding party where black tie attire, so the groomsmen rented tuxedos and the bridesmaids found dresses in a particular color and length.

00:46:09

Speaker 1: So even several of our local attendees that is, members of the wedding party

00:46:13

Speaker 1: invested a considerable amount of money to participate in our wedding even though they didn't travel for it.

00:46:19

Speaker 1: Several out of town guests and members of the wedding party chose to skip a physical gift or cash and instead gave us beautiful cards with heartwarming words of congratulations and well wishes.

00:46:30

Speaker 1: My husband and I were so grateful for the most meaningful and special gift of all, which was the warmth of love from all of those friends and family who were part of our wedding celebration. I would encourage anyone who was budget conscious to prioritize attendance at the wedding if possible

00:46:46

Speaker 1: and if there is little left in the budget for a gift after travel expenses, choose a beautiful well made card and spend time writing a thoughtful note to the couple.

00:46:55

Speaker 1: They will enjoy the memories of your presence at the wedding and perhaps also the card as part of their wedding book for years to come

00:47:03

Speaker 1: enjoy those wedding bells best D. In D. C.

00:47:07

Speaker 2: D. In D. C. Thank you so much for this feedback. It is just so

00:47:12

Speaker 2: wonderful to hear this side and this perspective of it and I just really once again congratulations on your wedding. It sounds like it was a really, really special event and I am glad that it inspired so many of your guests to write such lovely guards to you.

00:47:33

Speaker 2: Thanks for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please do keep them coming. You can send your feedback or update to awesome etiquette Emily post dot com or leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463.

00:47:57

Speaker 2: It's time for a postscript segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today dan, I was wondering if I could, I probably won't have to drag you, you'll probably come with bells on into a conversation about punctuality and how it often on the other side is balanced with patients. I figured things

00:48:21

Speaker 2: well, you know we did meeting etiquette recently and I've certainly noticed like I have always been a very punctual person in my life and the pandemic. I think I've talked about this on the podcast before really

00:48:34

Speaker 2: changed that for me and not a great way and it's not that I'm finding myself showing up like a half hour late to social events, but

00:48:42

Speaker 2: I'm noticing that I have a harder time in the planning to go out checking all the boxes I used to, you know, like just the same way as you go out the door. You usually think like wallet, cellphone keys, maybe sunglasses, right? Like you kind of have like your little checklist you run through

00:48:59

Speaker 2: and I've noticed that the planning side of things for me in getting out the door to a friend's house or to meet them for a walk or something like that? Or maybe it's for a round of golf

00:49:10

Speaker 2: that I'm having to put way more effort into it than I used to because I just wasn't flexing those muscles as many times a week

00:49:18

Speaker 2: as I used to. And so it got me thinking about the other side of punctuality and that is patience and having the patience to wait out someone's lack of punctuality and yet also putting importance in your own life on punctuality. So I thought they might be too fun peas to talk about today.

00:49:38

Speaker 1: Well I love it because I was recently doing a training call with one of our future trainers and we were talking about

00:49:47

Speaker 1: big picture etiquette concepts, the types of things that can give you a lot of guidance when you're figuring out what to do in other, more specific situations. And one of those big umbrellas that we talked about was being on time and respecting other people's time honoring time contracts punctuality. And

00:50:07

Speaker 1: I found myself in the process of talking about it, acknowledging that we have a set of tip cards that we provide as training materials and that

00:50:16

Speaker 1: Whether it's meeting etiquette, dining etiquette, top 10 business etiquette tips, there's a set of our tip cards and on over half of them the first tip is beyond

00:50:25

Speaker 2: time, is it important? It's

00:50:31

Speaker 1: pretty important and what really intrigues me about the way you're approaching it is a sense of balance that like so many things in life when there's something that's really important, there's oftentimes more of an equation with something else on the other side of the equal sign and

00:50:46

Speaker 1: the idea that punctuality is important, but that if we're going to talk about how important it is,

00:50:52

Speaker 1: then really patience is also important because it's going to be required to balance out the equation

00:50:59

Speaker 1: either when you're

00:51:01

Speaker 1: so punctual that you're a little ahead of time and you need to exercise a little bit of patience while everything catches up to your ahead of

00:51:08

Speaker 2: schedule or

00:51:11

Speaker 1: on the other side of things dealing with the real world where real things happen and despite everyone's best intentions and even thoughtful action and planning things don't always work out exactly the way we intend or hope and

00:51:24

Speaker 1: sometimes some understanding and some patients is required when you're operating within a framework where

00:51:30

Speaker 1: the understood rule is so important.

00:51:33

Speaker 2: I think of it as like, um if you've ever been in therapy and they said think think about little you write like the little version of you and sometimes that means the childhood version of you, but other times you're thinking about the different versions of you that that are in your head or that come out

00:51:50

Speaker 2: and I try to make much smaller than she often can be.

00:51:55

Speaker 2: This little version of me that is just constantly arms crossed tapping a foot like waiting, waiting, waiting. And I try to shrink her down, you know, so that she's a much smaller version of me, but it is so true that none of us are going to be perfectly punctual all the time. There's just too many little things that can get in the way and stop you even if you've planned for that 15 minutes in case of traffic or okay in some cities, maybe it's 45 minutes in case of traffic or something like that, that there is always something unexpected that could pop up and and contribute to us being late and that that means that all of us can really relate to that

00:52:40

Speaker 2: and the the angst, the judgment, the frustration that we start to feel when someone is late and and we are on time or we're waiting for them

00:52:51

Speaker 2: is something that I think we can sympathize with more regularly even though what someone might be late for might be really important. And it is creating a sense of a lack of consideration or a lack of respect, even if it is contributing to those things which are obviously negative.

00:53:09

Speaker 2: How on our end when we're experiencing someone else's lateness or lack of punctuality,

00:53:17

Speaker 2: can we allow it to serve us better and have that patients serve us better and minimize those little crossed arms tapping feet version of us that's in our head that's so frustrated.

00:53:29

Speaker 2: So anyway, those were just some, some of the things that I was thinking about with it. But

00:53:34

Speaker 2: when we talk about punctuality, dan, what are some of the kind of reasons for it? The things that it does well for us, when we when we enacted in our lives

00:53:44

Speaker 1: for me, the big picture thing that punctuality shows is that it respects other people and how does it do that? It respects their time and there's a whole concept that's implicit when we're talking about punctuality, but let's make it explicit.

00:53:58

Speaker 1: That's that there's some kind of deadline, there's some sort of agreement in order for there to be a concept of punctuality. There has to be a concept of this is the time it's supposed to happen and the vast majority of times, that's an agreement with someone else in some way. However, that agreement has been set up, whether it's a calendar invite, I'll meet you there then verbal or

00:54:19

Speaker 1: anything in between

00:54:20

Speaker 2: the start of an event

00:54:22

Speaker 1: and I was thinking about the subtle ist version of that agreement, which is one with yourself. I'm gonna set a deadline for myself. This is going to be done by friday morning meeting your deadlines

00:54:32

Speaker 1: being punctual honoring your time contracts shows respect. It shows respect for other people or it shows respect for yourself. Whoever you've made that agreement with,

00:54:43

Speaker 1: you want to respect the moment and the reasons for agreeing to do that and you want to honor them and do your best to to be there

00:54:52

Speaker 1: respect is the answer for me as to why punctuality is important? Not because it makes everything go smoother. It's true. It does not because it's functionally gets more work done if people can count on calendars or and all those things are important.

00:55:08

Speaker 2: But at

00:55:09

Speaker 1: its heart it shows respect.

00:55:11

Speaker 2: I really like on top of the respect, the sense of reliability and trust that it

00:55:17

Speaker 1: can build.

00:55:18

Speaker 2: Yeah, right? When you start really thinking

00:55:21

Speaker 1: about it, it's like

00:55:22

Speaker 2: when you can really trust that someone's going to be on time or when you yourself know that you can get out the door on time,

00:55:30

Speaker 2: just the sense of ease that that brings to things and to relationships. Um, someone's not sitting around wondering or thinking, well

00:55:38

Speaker 2: he or she or they might show up in five minutes, they might show up in an hour. I've seen everything in between. You know, that's, that's a, you know, basically like throw a dart at a board and that's the time the person might might actually show up if that's the kind of

00:55:56

Speaker 2: relationship that you're building with people, if that's the kind of impression that you're leaving,

00:56:01

Speaker 2: it's not one that can be really counted on a lot of the times and we all have them in our families or in our friend groups there sometimes is just that one person who you're like, you know what the one thing I can count on is that they will be late. How late is the biggest question but is that really the impression you want to be putting out there like.

00:56:20

Speaker 2: And so I I love the idea that

00:56:23

Speaker 2: by working on punctuality I can actually build better, more trusting relationships with people I can be someone that can be counted on and if something is wrong, people aren't just if I am late. They aren't just assuming that's just me. That's just how I behave and how I treat other people in their time.

00:56:43

Speaker 2: They're sitting thinking oh boy, something must really be wrong because lizzie, she's never late. You know, at least I hope that's what they think.

00:56:52

Speaker 2: But I like that reliability and trust and relationship building.

00:56:56

Speaker 1: I love the outcomes of reliability and trust being the result of

00:57:01

Speaker 1: punctual behavior. It's it's so key.

00:57:04

Speaker 1: And you walked us up to some tricky territory with the idea of the persistently late friend and

00:57:11

Speaker 2: it

00:57:12

Speaker 1: introduced the topic. I wasn't going to address this postscript but I'll just mention it which is that people have very different relationships to the very concept of time

00:57:21

Speaker 1: and I don't wanna sort of go too far down the road of acknowledging what a subtle and tricky thing. Time and time management is.

00:57:31

Speaker 1: But it is it is true that

00:57:35

Speaker 1: in its simplest version some people wear watches, some people don't, some people feel much more accountable to a division of the day into hours than they do a division of the day in two minutes and

00:57:49

Speaker 1: I in some ways think this is maybe a good place to acknowledge that and then also transition to the concept of patients, which I think acknowledges that not everyone has that same relationship to time and

00:58:03

Speaker 1: as positive as all those benefits are as effective as all the attributes that are associated with timeliness, make someone that it's not necessarily true that someone who has a looser relationship with time is a bad person or doesn't care and having an understanding about that is

00:58:23

Speaker 1: maybe the beginning of a way to

00:58:26

Speaker 2: patience, a

00:58:28

Speaker 1: virtue that isn't easy

00:58:30

Speaker 2: before we jump over there. One of the other things that I do really like about punctuality and

00:58:37

Speaker 2: without saying that any one particular timing as dan is saying is better than the other,

00:58:44

Speaker 2: but while still understanding that being punctual does demonstrate respect and it helps to build a reliable and trustworthy relationship.

00:58:53

Speaker 2: I think it also shows that you can organize yourself and that you can anticipate potential issues

00:59:00

Speaker 2: that might come up. You know, when you're that person who's always able to get out the door 5, 10, 15 minutes early if you can, because you know that you might not hit the traffic lights correctly or there could be an accident somewhere that that makes you have to take a detour or something like that,

00:59:16

Speaker 2: that you're able to show up on time and fulfill that commitment that you made the way dan saying you can't be late unless, unless both parties had agreed there was a time you were supposed to be there, right,

00:59:29

Speaker 2: I think that it's, it does just add to creating a great impression of, of who you are and what you can handle and I think that it's, to me it's really interesting to see all of these things that punctuality can actually end up demonstrating

00:59:45

Speaker 2: um but you got us into patients because and you, you started off right in the place where I think most people would start which is

00:59:52

Speaker 2: That old adage that patience is a virtue and that it is a virtue that is especially difficult I think for a lot of people, I, I don't think anyone is 100% awesome at patients all the time. I think it's something

01:00:09

Speaker 2: that you could be naturally better at than somebody else but that it is something we all have to practice and exercise

01:00:16

Speaker 2: and keep at the forefront of our brain or that we are all presented with many opportunities in life to practice our patients patience

01:00:24

Speaker 1: is a virtue is such a cliche,

01:00:27

Speaker 2: it's

01:00:27

Speaker 1: such a cliche

01:00:28

Speaker 2: and one

01:00:30

Speaker 1: of my favorite things to say about cliches is they become cliches because we say them all the time. We say them all the time because they are true

01:00:37

Speaker 1: and

01:00:38

Speaker 1: I think that this world would be well served if everyone could really remember what a virtue patience is that it will be required of all of us. And

01:00:49

Speaker 1: it's both a virtue in terms of the relationships that we have with other people, the ability to be forgiving and understanding and tolerant, even if it's not forgiveness or understanding that's required. But just tolerance that has benefits in that relationship and in that context. But

01:01:07

Speaker 1: patients also pays benefits. Internally, it is a safe psychological and emotional place to be. If you can say to yourself, I'm a patient person

01:01:16

Speaker 1: and this waiting doesn't bother me, it doesn't aggravate me, it doesn't bring me to a place of grievance. That's a real tool in your toolbox. And we talked earlier in this show about anger and ways to

01:01:30

Speaker 1: if not confront anger, manage it, deal with it when you're presented with it and whether it's lateness or anger. The idea of patients, I think is is an expectation that we can have ourselves and like you said, lizzie, a skill that we can cultivate in ourselves that

01:01:48

Speaker 1: has the potential to yield benefits both externally and internally.

01:01:52

Speaker 2: one of the places where I find it really

01:01:56

Speaker 2: easy to reframe my patients, right? Because you can be forced into being patient, right? Like it's you have to wait until that person shows up for the thing that you agreed you both were going to come in at a certain time on.

01:02:11

Speaker 2: But how I think about that time I find greatly changes my level of positively being patient versus negatively being patient. And so that that internal voice, that little toe tapper that's inside of me if I can instead get her to focus on the fact that, okay, so client just told me they're going to be 15 minutes late rather than be annoyed because I've just spent half an hour prepping and I'm like ready to go, I'm here, I'm on time, I'm ready, who? I've worked it all up and I'm ready to engage and now I've got like a 15 minute delay

01:02:48

Speaker 2: Rather than sort of get angsty about that. I try and think what can I accomplish in 15 minutes? Does it allow me to respond to that email right now? Does it allow me to quickly,

01:03:00

Speaker 2: you know, run and use the restroom or grab a glass of water if I haven't already done those things, which I should have already done before a scheduled meeting. But um it might allow me to catch up on something or tackle something or even allow me a moment of peace where I say, you know what,

01:03:17

Speaker 2: I've got these 15 minutes, I'm gonna take a deep breath. Maybe I do a little meditation. I do that headspace app. Maybe I take a minute and stretch or just like walk around my house for a moment, go take care of a dish that was left in the sink.

01:03:33

Speaker 2: What can I utilize this time for as opposed to thinking of it as time wasted or time taken from me.

01:03:40

Speaker 1: I love the sense of control that that provides,

01:03:43

Speaker 2: I'm going,

01:03:44

Speaker 1: well, it's true. Oftentimes it's uh, an internal choice whether you're

01:03:53

Speaker 1: at the mercy of the world or whether you're in control of what you're thinking and feeling. And I think making that choice and embracing the idea of patience as a virtue

01:04:04

Speaker 1: is a real way to do that. And I like some of your strategies for

01:04:09

Speaker 1: also filling that time and space as someone who

01:04:13

Speaker 1: finds himself repeating things. His mother used to tell him when he was young. Like I never want to hear you say you're bored. That's like saying you're boring. No one is responsible for your attention, but

01:04:22

Speaker 2: you,

01:04:24

Speaker 1: um,

01:04:25

Speaker 1: it's, it's a really cogent reminder that your attention is yours and it's one of the things that you have the most control over and the most responsibility for.

01:04:34

Speaker 2: I know that sometimes just like with the timing where it can vary, people's sense of timing can vary. I'm also often interested in what feels like how my own perception of time impacts my patients. So like does not register if I've got 20 people coming over for a dinner party

01:04:53

Speaker 2: And 15 of them have arrived and one of them is 15 minutes late. Like no, like just doesn't, doesn't even bother. Don't even notice and probably, oh my gosh, and you're here. Oh and it's already this time, I didn't even notice, you know, but

01:05:07

Speaker 2: if I'm waiting on like a zoom call for like five minutes or if we've got like an interview scheduled and someone's like three minutes late.

01:05:15

Speaker 2: It's, it's amazing how quickly my brain starts to go. Do they, do I have the date and time of the call? Right. Do I have the details correct? Did they have the details correct? Did we both confirm? It's like I'm rushing through my email, I'm checking through my message is trying to figure out if there was a disconnect and it's only like been 3-5 minutes in.

01:05:37

Speaker 2: It's worth recognizing that two different things, whether they be social events or business events, that the idea of lateness can vary

01:05:48

Speaker 2: and that when it then comes to, how am I going to choose to be patient about this? My my patients varies as well in the, in the differing scenarios. And just being aware of that fact I think is

01:06:02

Speaker 2: another thing that can help you exercise that patience. Like I look at it and I say, okay, well we're only three minutes past the mark.

01:06:10

Speaker 2: I've checked everything. It looks good in another 2-3 minutes because it's a virtual call. I'm gonna send an email and just asking if now is still a good time probably wouldn't

01:06:21

Speaker 2: three minutes into that dinner party scenario text. Someone who isn't there yet and say, hey, is everything okay? Are you still coming tonight?

01:06:29

Speaker 2: You know, you wanna, you wanna exercise your patients a little differently in the different scenarios.

01:06:35

Speaker 1: I think that's a great tip. There are different times in life where our own internal clocks are ticking and if we can think just a little bit ahead of time about where those triggers are likely to go off. Those are also places to be extra careful and to remind ourselves that

01:06:53

Speaker 1: maybe taking a breath and letting it linger for just a minute is

01:06:57

Speaker 1: not as hard as it feels and maybe even as an opportunity to exercise a little bit of that virtue.

01:07:03

Speaker 2: Well dan to put in a classically ham fisted joke on our podcast.

01:07:09

Speaker 2: I really, I really hope we haven't tested everyone's patience with the length of this post script but truly thank you all for being patient and giving a listen and hopefully this gets you all thinking a little bit about punctuality and patience in your own life.

01:07:29

Speaker 1: We could depend on him to be on time

01:07:32

Speaker 1: and to do his work on time. You might call him an eager beaver,

01:07:36

Speaker 1: but look at it from the employer's point of view.

01:07:39

Speaker 1: Wouldn't you like to have bob working for you?

01:07:44

Speaker 1: Mhm

01:07:45

Speaker 2: We like to

01:07:45

Speaker 1: end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms today. We have a salute from low to

01:07:56

Speaker 2: high lizzie and dan. I am a substitute teacher and have been for a few years now. I love the flexibility and change from day to day.

01:08:05

Speaker 2: I go to only a handful of schools and now have a nice relationship with many teachers.

01:08:10

Speaker 2: A few weeks ago I was set to teach math at a local high school which is only five minutes away from home. As I got in the car, I saw that the tire pressure indicator said it was a little low but I thought I would just check it out after work. No biggie. Well when I got to work I looked at the tire and it was flat.

01:08:30

Speaker 2: I knew I had options.

01:08:32

Speaker 2: I took a picture and sent it to my husband and we would figure out what best options there were.

01:08:38

Speaker 2: I just wanted to get in and set myself up for teaching that day.

01:08:43

Speaker 2: I was in the math office and over the P. A. System they mentioned my car and whoever it belonged to if they could come to the office. The principal had seen my car and didn't want me to be stuck at the end of the day in case I wasn't aware of the flat.

01:09:00

Speaker 2: I was so touched with his consideration. I thanked him when I got to the math office, I told the two other teachers why I went, they both suggested I go to the automotive teacher.

01:09:11

Speaker 2: I had told them I knew the math office teachers but didn't feel comfortable just walking in and asking the automotive teacher to look at my car.

01:09:20

Speaker 2: One of the teachers in the math office made some excuse why she had to go see this person anyway and she would take me down and introduce me. Well the teacher for the automotive class not only fixed my tire, but also used it as a learning tool in class.

01:09:36

Speaker 2: The cost was a nominal fee for the consumables for something that could have been a stressful situation. It ended up being such a pleasant one.

01:09:45

Speaker 2: This salute goes out to the principal who wanted to make sure I was aware of my car situation. The teachers that suggested I go to the automotive class and introduced me to the teacher who then fixed my car with so much kindness, take care, love.

01:10:02

Speaker 2: I love I love that. It's like a little cascade of good things happening from this flat tire which is usually such a pain.

01:10:10

Speaker 1: A cascade of, of good etiquette is exactly the best way to describe that and

01:10:18

Speaker 1: it is such a reminder for me that someone who doesn't like to ask for help that so often those moments where we get to ask for help are the moments where other people really get to shine love. Thank you so much for this etiquette salute. It really made my day.

01:10:33

Speaker 1: Mhm

01:10:34

Speaker 1: Mhm

01:10:36

Speaker 2: Mhm

01:10:38

Speaker 2: Thank you

01:10:39

Speaker 1: all for listening

01:10:40

Speaker 2: today

01:10:41

Speaker 1: and thank you to everyone who sent us something and everyone who supports us on Patreon.

01:10:45

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01:10:53

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01:10:53

Speaker 1: can send us your next question feedback or salute by email to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463

01:11:06

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01:11:14

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01:11:26

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01:11:32

Speaker 1: Our show is edited by Kris Albertine and a system produced by Bridget. Thanks it.

01:11:45

Speaker 1: Yeah.

01:11:46

Speaker 1: Mhm.

01:11:48

Speaker 1: Mhm