Episode 409: Cringe-worthy Wedding Trends

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy. That's old fashioned

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Speaker 1: act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness.

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Speaker 1: Hello

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Speaker 2: and welcome to awesome etiquette

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Speaker 1: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On

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Speaker 2: today's show, we take your questions on

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Speaker 1: formal

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Speaker 2: gender neutral titles, dressing for a concert and how that might impact your friend

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Speaker 2: apologizing for Miss jen during someone and a neighbor's tree affecting your property

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Speaker 1: for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about what items you should keep in your guest bathroom for guests

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Speaker 2: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a post script where I am joined by Lindsay jones of the woman getting married website to talk about cringe worthy wedding trends

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Speaker 2: and whether or not they

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Speaker 1: really make us cringe all that's coming up,

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm dan post Senning

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Speaker 2: and I'm lizzie post and it feels like we just did

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Speaker 1: this because I know

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Speaker 2: it does, it does as we stack them up for your work slash family trip to to Star Island next week,

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Speaker 2: which will be over by the time this episode airs, But

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Speaker 2: because I'm getting excited with your permission, can I tease a little something for our audience,

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Speaker 1: please do.

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay,

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Speaker 2: one of the programs that I'm really excited to dig my claws or brain or elbow grease into whatever you wanna call it while dan's off at Star Island is actually an etiquette daily series, we're calling it etiquette 3 65. And the purpose of this series is to receive an email a day that has just sort of an etiquette thought or tips. Some of them are quotes from Emily, but that could kind of be a companion to our book, might be a way to think of it,

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Speaker 2: But something that you don't have to click anything, it just shows up right into your email inbox and it's not as long as our newsletter, which

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Speaker 2: I tend to make quite long. Um, it's sort of something short and sweet to kind of just give you that little bit of etiquette jolt or etiquette um, etiquette, nosh etiquette snack for the day

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Speaker 1: as someone who's doing a lot of repetitive teaching with little Children, I think of it as a,

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Speaker 1: a really effective way to train yourself. I'm looking forward to going through the series and

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Speaker 1: as I was checking just a couple of the ones that I've seen you post already, the thought that I was having to myself is, it would be so nice to get this in my mailbox every morning as someone who works in etiquette, it would, it would bring my

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Speaker 2: mind to that space

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Speaker 1: and it's just a

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Speaker 1: a quick, easy way to allow the thoughts that we share on this podcast and the approach that we share on this podcast to be

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Speaker 1: a part of a routine where you could just get a little reminder just enough to keep it alive in your brain and in your life.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly. So part of the teasing of this is to, to hold my feet to the fire and make sure that I do this work next week while I have the time while dan's at Star Island.

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Speaker 2: So we're really excited. The courses is about a third of the way built and luckily it can actually start before it's even finished being built.

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Speaker 2: So we're really excited to kind of tease this one, get you thinking about it and hopefully, um it'll be something that you'll be able to engage with and appreciate. And um just another way to get a little bit more etiquette into your life.

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Speaker 1: So I'm curious lizzie post as you get into the hundreds on these. I'm interested in what the writing process is like. You're used to long form writing and this is very different. The target here is to deliver a digestible, coherent

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Speaker 1: thought and to keep it short. Is it true? Is that harder?

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Speaker 2: It is harder. Um it's especially harder because some of our material, especially at the start of the book is, and the book is kind of what I've been using as a, as a guide to map this out this material out.

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Speaker 2: It's not like copy pasted pieces from the book.

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Speaker 2: And so I'm looking at what's there and I'm having to think how would I rework this into something shorter. And that's hard because I often, once I've explained like one

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Speaker 2: you all know how it goes on this podcast. I mean our answers are like 10, 12 minutes long. Sometimes there are caveats, people, I hear thoughts in my head, like I'll type one sentence and then I'll hear five podcast, audience voices pop up and say, yeah, but what about this? But what about that? This that this that and I'll go, you gotta stop lizzie.

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Speaker 2: And so that's when I try to form one thought

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Speaker 2: Out of what I'm looking at and then allow the next day to be the next thought and my hope is that it'll have that effect where some of them will build. Like I got to a section of the book where we were talking about cultivating kindness in different ways. There are about 10 different ways with your language that you can tweak your language or

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Speaker 2: how you're approaching something in order to kind of

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Speaker 2: give the other people involved a little bit more space and room and and just have it be a process that isn't just

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Speaker 2: you kind of bulldozing your way through everything and that, you know, runs on for a bit and I get I get a little bit like, okay, so now that we're out of that. Is it very clear that the next tip is a

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Speaker 2: Is a new topic, you know what I mean? And it should be because it's about something, but the building of it has been really interesting. I've been really relieved when I find a way to say something in 2-3 sentences

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Speaker 2: and I kind of make myself work harder. I tell myself, no, you're not done yet. When I get tempted to hit a return and do a second paragraph, I'm like, nah, nah, nah, nah, no one thought like one thought, give him one thought, maybe two

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Speaker 2: and so a lot of them end up being a little bit of thought with a sample language to help or sometimes just an example of something. But the goal is really to create that feel of, it's just a little nugget, a little chunk, like you said, a little something to keep etiquette alive in your day and inspire you

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Speaker 2: to hold that door for someone to think first before you speak to hold space for others to have opinions and perspectives and experiences and things like that. So my hope is that is that it's gonna be

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Speaker 2: really useful to folks what I'm really curious about dan because like right now I'm about on target

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Speaker 2: For the content in the book to be able to span those 365 days,

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Speaker 1: you

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Speaker 2: know, it is really awesome, but I am starting to wonder if it's gonna end up being

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Speaker 1: like

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Speaker 2: 500 days or something like that, you know, like a year and a half's worth of material or something like that, in which case we would start a second series, but it is really fun. It was really exciting to figure out how to make this all work. It's actually

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Speaker 2: um not as easy as one would think to deliver a paid for series to an inbox directly without using linking or anything like that. And so

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Speaker 2: that was the first part of this project was just the logistical. Can I do this? What apps and app connectors and platform connectors do I need to make this work? And we figured all that out,

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Speaker 2: but I am really excited. I'm excited that you got the feel of this would be nice getting delivered to my inbox. That makes me feel really good and like I'm headed in the right direction with this particular project

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Speaker 2: but it is very different writing short things dan, it's very different.

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Speaker 1: So my curiosity and interest is definitely a little selfish because I do work in this field with you, That particular dose of inspiration is particularly useful

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Speaker 2: and

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Speaker 1: when I asked the question about the short writing, I was

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Speaker 1: imagining an answer something like the one you gave, where you said, you know, it really forces me to clarify

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Speaker 1: what is the thought, what is the central idea or the core point I'm trying to make here or the thing I'm trying to share

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Speaker 1: and I think that kind of clarity is so useful. It's so good for us in general to be able to think that way when we talk about etiquette, because so often the opportunities that we have to talk about it aren't like this podcast where we can't go on and talk about

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Speaker 1: all the

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Speaker 1: dependent variables and situational factors that might affect it or the this is and that's the ors and ands.

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Speaker 1: I was also curious about the themes that might start to emerge as you started thinking about how to group those individual thoughts. And I already heard one cultivating kindness and

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Speaker 1: that makes me even more excited. I love the idea of being able to start to anticipate, oh, for for the next few days I'm gonna have a cultivating kindness in my language theme and I'm gonna get a series of variations on that or ideas about that, and I can just imagine how that would work on me mentally. And

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Speaker 1: I love it. Are there other themes or should I just wait? Just wait your experience,

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Speaker 2: you're gonna have to wait. But it's all the classic things and especially because I'm using the book to guide it as I move through, it's like we start with a lot of the big concept stuff. So we set a foundation for what etiquette is

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Speaker 2: and then we move right into the etiquette, we go through greetings and introductions and right now I'm in the conversation space where we've just gone through the basics of conversation, but

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Speaker 2: there's probably a whole week and a half worth of material on, you know, titles. I do think some of the Emily characters slip in in a couple of places, but not not as much as the book, but there's definitely like, because it goes along with the book, but it's not exactly the book.

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Speaker 2: To me, it feels really logical because I wrote the, you know, like we wrote the book

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Speaker 2: and that, like, it feels like it's progressing in a really nice way. But I'm

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Speaker 1: so excited about this project. I just think it's the coolest thing.

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad.

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Speaker 2: I'm really interested to see what happens when I get to things that have more visuals associated with them. Like something like where to place guests at a table and

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Speaker 2: if you were at a restaurant where would you put a guest of honor and a host? You know, like that sort of thing. Be interesting to see what is really easy to work in this format with and what's harder and kind of ends up just staying in the book.

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Speaker 2: For instance, the types of talkers ended up just staying in the book. They were characters that

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Speaker 2: define sort of some of the classic stereotypical people, we might meet, the person who runs on and on and on and on, or the person who, it's always about them, you know, or the person who shuts down every conversation. That was one of Emily's characters. Mr door slammer.

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Speaker 2: Um who is just you you try to enter a conversation with them and they just shut you down at every point, like, oh, how's the weather? The weather is the worst thing to talk about,

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Speaker 2: okay, like, you know, um so I let those, those folks be in the book, but um it'll be really cool to see what, what comes out of it, and I'm really hoping that it offers an accessible point for folks to be able to participate in etiquette and feel like they are getting a little something special and they're getting that daily dose, so

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Speaker 2: fingers crossed cuts,

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Speaker 1: I'll cross them all, and I also, this isn't one where I'm even nervous where I'm like, oh, I gotta cross my fingers, I just I think this is gonna be a really good product I

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Speaker 1: want to share with everybody listening from the Emily Post Institute business side of things, that one of the big challenges for you and me and for our generation is figuring out how to bring Emily Post content into the digital world, and the idea of making the

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Speaker 1: the big picture themes and the content that we talk about and presenting it in ways that are more and more digestible and delivering it in formats that people are used to today is something that we're really invested in, and we're looking for ways to do. Well, I was having a client call just yesterday with someone talking about a seminar

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Speaker 1: and they were wondering about people's attention spans and they had noticed within their training that they were needing to find smaller and smaller units of content to deliver because it was harder to get people's attention and to hold it.

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Speaker 1: And this project of, of thinking about presenting content that spans the entire centennial edition book, but doing it in little bites one a day for a year,

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Speaker 1: I just think that it's a format that is going to work for people and I love making that a possibility for a lot of people that wouldn't necessarily consider the book and who, that isn't a good option for.

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Speaker 2: Oh dan. That that brings up so so many thoughts for me, especially from my days working, doing magazine columns, where we watched the columns dwindle from really good thought pieces that offered a lot of space to explore. Caveat situations and things like that.

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Speaker 2: Getting distilled down into sound bites, one sentence, just one sentence and that was a place where that particular restriction really impacted me. I felt like in a negative way and this feels because granted we're in control of the amount that we're gonna put into each of these.

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Speaker 2: This feels a little bit like it's the happy medium between those two ideals, that the short,

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Speaker 2: easy digestible bite and the quality content that really gets into something enough that you feel like someone can walk away feeling full from that bite, not like they're just hungry for so much more, or like somehow all the other ingredients were left out and we just got one, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's really nice to kind of do that sound bitey thing in a way that doesn't, I think diminish the quality of the conversation that you're trying to have through this content

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Speaker 1: lizzie post. Keep us posted

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Speaker 2: please.

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Speaker 2: I will. I'm really hoping that in about two weeks I'm gonna have an announcement that says this is up and ready for purchase and

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Speaker 2: at an accessible price point. So I'm excited. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm excited to, I didn't know this was going to be our, our topic for the morning and I'm just delighted you decided to share it with everyone. Good,

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Speaker 2: good, good, good, good. Alright, well we've certainly talked about it for long enough and and even though it's supposed to be about short bites, we went on long, Do you want to uh

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Speaker 2: get to our questions which is the big purpose of our show?

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Speaker 1: That sounds like a good idea, Let's do it,

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Speaker 2: let's do it,

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Speaker 1: awesome

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Speaker 2: etiquette is here to answer your questions, You can email them to awesome etiquette. Emily Post

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00:15:17

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Speaker 1: you want your question

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Speaker 2: on the

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Speaker 1: show.

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Speaker 1: Our first question this week is titled formal title for They Them

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Speaker 1: Dear lizzie and dan. Thank you so much for your podcast and keeping consideration, respect and honesty at the forefront

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Speaker 1: using this lens has helped me navigate some tough situations.

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Speaker 1: My question today is what is the formal address for someone who is non binary and uses they them pronouns. This came up when I was submitting an official email to someone with whom I had previously corresponded. So I knew their preferred pronouns.

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Speaker 1: I ended up just saying hello and not using an address at all as opposed to making a mistake. Google was no help

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Speaker 1: but I've been thinking about it ever since. I'm sure others have this question as well, sincerely Sarah she her

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Speaker 2: sarah, thank you so much for the question and for the inspiration. If google was no help, that means we need to do a better job with our titles page and make sure that this is this is information that's getting picked up. So it might be a good assignment for us on our end to go update our own web web pages

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Speaker 2: on this topic. But ever inspirational podcast work is

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Speaker 2: for someone who identifies as non binary and uses they them pronouns the formal title that you would use like if you had wanted to use a title like mr or miss the equivalent to those would be Mix, M X a capital M a lower case X and then a period

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Speaker 2: because you were already known this person. My guess is that you were probably on a first name basis at that point. And that might have negated the need to even use a title. So your hello was was probably fairly appropriate. I would I would say that that was kind of like a good go to if you were in a situation of being unsure which you were.

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Speaker 2: But I think I feel very confident saying that that Mix would be the title here unless you wanted to ask, you know, Oh I never asked you know what title do you prefer to use or what title do you use? Would be another way to say it Probably a better way to say it. But Mixes is what would solve this problem for me if I'm thinking about this.

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Speaker 1: I love it when there's a simple etiquette answer and I love it when there's a complication and I think you covered both of those.

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Speaker 1: The mixed title works so well, it really allows us to have

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Speaker 1: a formal option that's non binary and there are all kinds of situations and cases where that's important and really convenient. The complication that I think you described really well is that oftentimes we're not using formal titles and emails. So I also wouldn't feel too bad about this particular instance and

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Speaker 1: I would think to myself provided a good opportunity for me to really consider that question for a situation where

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Speaker 1: it would be much more relevant or even important that I know the answer,

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Speaker 2: you know, dan, even though we do tend to use our, our first names way more liberally than I feel like any other generation has, it doesn't hurt to get comfortable asking people about formal details

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Speaker 2: and in my own brain it's like, this isn't necessarily a formal detail, but one thing I try really hard to do is to get someone's mailing address when I not right when I meet them, but when I've determined this person is like close enough in my life that I'd like to be sending them either birthday cards or

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Speaker 2: for me it would be a christmas card around the holiday time or a Happy New Year card

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Speaker 2: for those types of things. I've been trying really hard to get that address and to put it in my phone to not just have it be in a text thread that I might have to look up at some point or that I might have to ask again because it's just disappeared too far up the text chain at this point.

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Speaker 2: Um and it would be another type of consideration that you might try to start doing, where it's like,

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Speaker 2: you know, you're not going to use it all the time, but for the moments where it would be really nice to know the formal version, it's a good thing to ask. And mix is a title that can be used by all. It can. It's an option for everyone,

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Speaker 2: for most people who use they them pronouns exclusively. It's most likely that Mix is going to be their formal title that that they would choose to associate with. But because we're still all getting used to mix and because some people might choose to use Mix in some circumstances, but use a miss or

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Speaker 2: maybe even a mrs um, or like a mister in another circumstance, it's worth asking about and it's worth just saying, hey, I love collecting formal details about people so that if I ever have to address them formally, I've got it, what title do you like to use or what title do you use is another way to go.

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Speaker 2: And I think that, you know, making a note in, in your little contact file for them on. It is a great way so that you don't have to ask multiple times.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing this exact thing right now. I'm moving through my social media accounts and I'm trying to harvest addresses from people that I've been connected with primarily through social media so that I've got the option of sending those announcements and those cards and

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Speaker 1: touching base in other ways. If I'm not on that social media platform at some point in the future or if they aren't,

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Speaker 1: it's, it's such a good project. It's such a good reminder to move those contacts into your phone, move them somewhere that you've got control and and

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Speaker 1: you know how to get them easily and at any point in the future that you want to sarah, we're so glad that this podcast has been a help to you and that you decided to bring this question to us. We hope that our answer helps everyone who's listening. Think more about formal titles,

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Speaker 1: but just as important as laws are the rules and usages of courtesy and consideration,

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Speaker 1: which we call good manners. They come naturally where people have a high regard for each other.

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Speaker 2: Our next question is titled Concerto competition clothing.

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Speaker 2: Hello, awesome etiquette team. I was enthused to hear that you answered my previous question, so I'm excited to ask another.

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Speaker 2: I have been selected to perform in my university's Concerto competition. I have performed at a senior recital before, but I feel that my apparel needs to be on another level for this large scale event.

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Speaker 2: I have envisioned myself wearing a sparkly gold dress for the performance. However, my friend who is also competing is wearing a gold dress. Should I look for a dress in another color or should I find a gold dress that is just of a different style and hue than hers. I greatly appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

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Speaker 2: All the best

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Speaker 2: Natalie she, her hers, that's kind of interesting. It is kind

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Speaker 1: of interesting and Natalie, thank you for the question I want to answer on behalf of my three year old aria, my five year old initial where the gold sparkly

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Speaker 2: dress, gold

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Speaker 1: sparkly is about our favorite thing in the whole world and

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Speaker 2: just think sparkly, right

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Speaker 1: awesome, you know, probably pretty sparkly would probably win, but gold sparkly is a close second and it just sounds like so much fun and I applaud your thinking about attire and presentation and the nature of the event and the nature of the competition and really wanting and being willing to think about it as a special event and what you can do to match the special nature of the event with some special attire that

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Speaker 1: will make you feel good and that would,

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Speaker 1: would give you the best chance? It's a competition as well,

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Speaker 1: as far as the thinking about what other people are wearing. My instinct is to say where, what makes you feel good, but I'm also really curious to hear what my cousin lizzie post has to say about the particular attire choice that you're thinking

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Speaker 2: about. It's funny the attire for this matter is actually less

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Speaker 2: to me,

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Speaker 2: what I think gets interesting in this etiquette question is that, you know, your friend is wearing a dress that's, that sounds similar to the dress you envision yourself wearing and is that an issue

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Speaker 2: and I am just gonna go out on a limb here cause I'll be curious to hear what your male perspective is on it

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Speaker 2: and say,

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Speaker 2: I don't think it is, I think it's fine when multiple people wear the same color to an event or a similar style of dress. And yes, it can be a little awkward when you walk in and someone is wearing the exact same dress than you are,

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Speaker 2: but I don't think that's etiquette awkward. I think that's personality, like your own feeling special about that dress and then seeing someone else wearing it. And remember these things get created for mass consumption

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Speaker 2: unless you had a designer who designed you a specific dress. The likelihood is someone somewhere is wearing that outfit.

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Speaker 2: And so for me, I worry a lot less about the fact that Natalie knows her friend is wearing a gold dress and does she want to try to change what she's going to wear

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Speaker 2: in order to, to attend this event comfortably knowing that her friend is also going to be in gold. And I do like the thoughts of maybe I should try to look for a dress in a different, like, shade of gold or have a different style. I don't know if Natalie has actually seen her friends dress or not,

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Speaker 2: but the thing I am a little more concerned of when it comes to the attire is does the gold dress you're envisioning wearing really fit the formality and the vibe of this event and I think that's probably my more important etiquette question,

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Speaker 2: unless you know, your friend is particularly, you know, Titch e will say about this type of thing and you know, I question the necessity of being kitschy about this, but it's probably not my place to judge this, this friend of Natalie's who's also in the competition, but for me, cause I'm thinking like,

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Speaker 2: okay, sparkly and gold, if that fits the formality, great, if that seems too showy, maybe

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Speaker 2: is there a cut of the dress that would make it more appropriate? Or if you did gold but not sparkly or maybe sparkles but in a darker, deeper color or something like just another color.

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Speaker 2: Would that make a difference? And again, that's all just coming from the formality and feel of the event, not the, in regards to the friend,

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Speaker 1: that's where I was keying on the etiquette was matching the nature of the event. The friend question like you say, it feels much more personal to me and

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Speaker 1: like you, I think that there's room for

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Speaker 1: lots of beautiful dresses as my little girls would say, lots of princesses, just because you're a princess doesn't mean I can't be a princess, we could probably even be the same

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Speaker 2: princess princess,

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Speaker 1: but I think you're also right to acknowledge that

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Speaker 1: relationships have their own communication and I oftentimes tell people, no, that sounds fine to me, but you know, the promises you've made within the context of this relationship and if you feel that you would be breaking a trust or it would be somehow not sincere that you

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Speaker 1: are on some level copying in a way that would make someone else feel bad. If if that's an internal logic that that has built up in the relationship, if they

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Speaker 1: told you about their plan for the dress and that really was the genesis of the idea and they wouldn't have told you and and included you. If they knew you were going to follow suit,

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Speaker 1: then you might honor that. But from a big picture outside perspective, I don't really see that being an issue just because someone told you they're wearing a gold dress doesn't mean that you can't.

00:27:08

Speaker 2: One thing I'm curious about dan is if when Natalie's friend told her that if Natalie turned around said I've been dreaming of wearing gold sparkles for this, that's so cool, you are too, you know, and maybe maybe the other person doesn't thinking sparkly, but

00:27:23

Speaker 2: for me, it's like I would use it as a, as a moment to state my own as well, not to feel like someone had just claimed gold and

00:27:30

Speaker 1: that's it. Like, you

00:27:31

Speaker 2: know, I

00:27:33

Speaker 1: really do. The the other thing that comes to mind

00:27:36

Speaker 1: when I hear this question was I wondered if I knew the person who sent it, we're currently working with someone in our trainer training, her name is MEREDITH Mcrae and all I can say her name because she's going to be working professionally in this field in a few short

00:27:49

Speaker 2: weeks and

00:27:51

Speaker 1: she's developing a training that's an etiquette training for musicians working as professionals.

00:27:57

Speaker 1: And it's entirely focused on exactly these sorts of questions, these sorts of courtesies. What are the behavioral expectations when you're a musician? You're at an event that for

00:28:09

Speaker 1: a certain percentage of people is a social event in their life. But for you, as a working musician, it's a professional job and you have to walk that line. You have to balance

00:28:19

Speaker 1: social expectations, professional expectations, work life, balance being a professional, but also being relaxed in an environment where

00:28:29

Speaker 1: other people are having a good time, an elegant evening, a wedding recital or a concert. And it creates a really interesting set of etiquette questions that

00:28:39

Speaker 1: our future trainer graduate MEREDITH is really interested in as a professional harpist herself.

00:28:45

Speaker 2: I want to come back to that in just one second because I'm smiling like ear to ear having just heard this, I didn't know that, that's what MEREDITH's goal was coming out of the train, the trainer program.

00:28:56

Speaker 2: But you said something that reminded me that no matter what friends regardless, Gold sparkly dress,

00:29:04

Speaker 2: not quite regardless, but whatever it is that you're choosing to wear for something like this, especially because it's a competition. You want to make sure that this outfit supports your performance, meaning that it doesn't get in the way, it's not itchy, It's, there's, there's nothing about it that's gonna hinder you from

00:29:24

Speaker 2: being able to take that big deep breath. You need to like to hold a long note like something like that. I think it's really important to make sure your outfit is first functional and in the formality of the event and after that we can kind of go just about any direction you want I think,

00:29:42

Speaker 2: but dan now I want to get to the second part which is I think we should have MEREDITH on for a post group segment to talk about etiquette for musicians in these types of situations. I think it would be a really awesome in depth etiquette dive.

00:29:56

Speaker 1: I will just say yes right now, I will make that ask and I really hope that MEREDITH

00:30:03

Speaker 1: is listening to this podcast and says yes as she hears us talk about it or if I get that question to her before she hears this, that the answer is yes,

00:30:11

Speaker 2: Natalie

00:30:13

Speaker 1: thank you so much for this question. This was clearly a lot of fun for both lizzie and I, we hope that you find the perfect dress and that the evening is a smashing success

00:30:23

Speaker 2: and I'm just going to say dan post Senning. If you have any pictures of you in princess Garb with your daughters, please post them to our Patreon account for people to check out. I want to see all the outfits all of them and preferably something with a tiara and wand at some point

00:30:43

Speaker 1: done and done

00:30:46

Speaker 1: glamour and poison charm to were all based simply on good group mary poison charmer personality traits.

00:30:54

Speaker 1: What do they have to do with clothes, makeup and hand?

00:30:57

Speaker 1: Well boys, you know, is simply a state of mind.

00:31:01

Speaker 1: It comes as a result of confidence in the way you look.

00:31:05

Speaker 1: Mhm.

00:31:10

Speaker 1: Our next question is about a miss gender mistake.

00:31:14

Speaker 1: Dear lizzie and dan. What would you do and say after Miss jen during a trans friend, co worker or family member or colleague, dana,

00:31:22

Speaker 2: dana. This is a great question and it can happen. We all forget a name, get a name wrong or slip up pronouns occasionally. That's common. But

00:31:33

Speaker 2: especially when it comes to folks who have transitioned, it's really important to get names and pronouns right?

00:31:45

Speaker 2: And the very best thing you can do when you get it wrong is to recognize that you just got it wrong and whether that's by your own recognition or because someone has said, oh no, it's actually she or it's actually George.

00:31:59

Speaker 2: You really want to apologize immediately in that moment. And just a very, you know, thoughtful, quick and sincere apology. You don't have to dwell on it. You don't have to repeat how sorry you are multiple, multiple multiple times. Um but saying, oh my gosh, thank you for the reminder, I'm so sorry or oh my gosh, I'm so sorry thank you for the reminder

00:32:19

Speaker 2: and then continue moving on and really try to

00:32:22

Speaker 2: use that, that little moment, that slight moment of embarrassment that we can all experience as a tool to remind you not to do it again. And it's it's that that kind of helpful.

00:32:35

Speaker 1: I

00:32:35

Speaker 2: almost want to say it's like a time where anxiety can be a little helpful. It's like it's it's that thing that that reminds me, oh, I'm not like I'm not gonna make that mistake again, okay. It is a really natural thing to mess up on. A lot of us can I mean, my nephew calls me mom or dad sometimes and I am neither in his life

00:32:55

Speaker 2: and you know, I always say it's Aunt Cisa and he's like, oh great, you know,

00:33:00

Speaker 2: and you move through it. So it's a really common thing for us to have these little bumps along the way,

00:33:06

Speaker 2: but it is really important to take care with it, to be honest about the mistake and to work towards getting it right in the future.

00:33:13

Speaker 1: It is a balance between two things, one that it's really important that we get people's names and pronouns right? That's a big part of people's identities and

00:33:23

Speaker 1: it matters, it matters what we call people and how we treat people

00:33:28

Speaker 1: and

00:33:28

Speaker 2: we can even add titles to that list.

00:33:30

Speaker 1: We absolutely can. And it's also true that it's really easy to make mistakes in this area and

00:33:37

Speaker 1: people understand that there is a shared experience of that awkwardness, that little moment of embarrassment that I got it wrong. And one of the most popular questions

00:33:48

Speaker 1: that I get in seminars are popular. One of the most common questions I get in seminars when I'm talking about introductions is well, what do you do if you get someone's name wrong? What do you do if you make a mistake? And

00:33:57

Speaker 1: the next slide in the deck is appropriately titled, What if you get a name

00:34:01

Speaker 2: wrong? And it's,

00:34:03

Speaker 1: this is your father's sense of humor lizzie post its three bullets and it's admit the mistake, apologize and move on. Are the three bullets on that slide and

00:34:12

Speaker 2: sounds like you and I have internalized them.

00:34:15

Speaker 1: Well, it's such a good reminder to me that the apology is important

00:34:19

Speaker 1: and that that meaning that apology is important and to mean it, you have to understand what happened and

00:34:26

Speaker 1: that part of delivering that apology well, is also your ability to deliver it so that everyone can move on from it. And

00:34:33

Speaker 1: the other thing I remind myself when we're talking about pronouns is this is really new information for a lot of people and I think that's both going to make it more likely that people make some mistakes along the way or that they feel that awkwardness more acutely

00:34:48

Speaker 1: and I really like to draw the analogy to getting a name wrong not to say that it's just a minor infraction, but to say it's important and it's also important that we know how to deal with it and deal with it well with patience and tolerance and understanding of each other wherever we are in that that interaction or that exchange

00:35:08

Speaker 1: because it is something that we're all going to be on both sides of at some point

00:35:12

Speaker 2: dana, just like dan said, this is new etiquette for a lot of people and we really appreciate you giving us the opportunity to answer your

00:35:20

Speaker 1: question.

00:35:22

Speaker 2: We hope our answer helps.

00:35:26

Speaker 1: That's not why I'm here. I'm here because I disagree. I think manners are important and here's why

00:35:35

Speaker 2: our next question is titled neighbors and nature dan. I gotta say this one falls into some real classic

00:35:41

Speaker 1: territory.

00:35:43

Speaker 2: Hi dan and lizzie, my wife and I live next door to a home owned by a couple that lives abroad. They left the home to their 2 20 something daughters with whom we maintain occasional friendly, neighborly contact primarily via social

00:35:58

Speaker 1: media, even though we live

00:35:59

Speaker 2: beside each other.

00:36:01

Speaker 2: A big old tree just on their side of the property line is partially dead and so smaller twigs and branches regularly rain down on our grass and driveway

00:36:13

Speaker 2: as I cut our grass. My main concern is that this makes it difficult to mow our half of the strip between our homes.

00:36:20

Speaker 2: My wife's main concern is that part of the tree will eventually fall, potentially causing damage both to our property and to our neighborly relationship. We quite like the girls and would like to develop a friendship with them as we are closer in age to them than the rest of our neighbors. Mostly retired

00:36:37

Speaker 2: and would hate to have an insurance claim between us.

00:36:41

Speaker 2: I explained this to them on social media, suggesting that they have a professional arborist prune the dead portions of the tree. After all, it is as much a danger to their property as to ours. And we would also hate to see their home damaged.

00:36:57

Speaker 2: I then sent them contact information for three local arborists who do free consultations

00:37:05

Speaker 2: months later, nothing has been done and a larger branch fell near our driveway. Following a

00:37:11

Speaker 1: windstorm.

00:37:12

Speaker 2: One of the girls helped me break it up to be picked up by the city on garbage day.

00:37:17

Speaker 2: She said she had forgotten all about calling the arborists and had just called one with no answer.

00:37:24

Speaker 2: She observed how expensive arborists are and asked if I knew anyone who could do the job. I don't and I am not unwilling to attempt it myself as I'm mildly handy,

00:37:35

Speaker 2: but I have no experience pruning a tree this size and recognize it is a dangerous job requiring proper equipment and expertise

00:37:45

Speaker 2: on top of that. It really isn't my responsibility and I feel like the girls need to step up and take more seriously their duty to maintain their parents property,

00:37:56

Speaker 2: presumably their parents could pay all or some of the cost if they can't

00:38:00

Speaker 2: while they are closer in age to us. I feel uncomfortable trying to direct their behavior too much with respect to property management because I feel it would come off sort of like mansplaining or elders explaining

00:38:13

Speaker 2: what more can I say or do to expedite this issue.

00:38:18

Speaker 2: We did collaborate a couple of times in the fall with the same sister, raking both sides of our shared lawn and me mowing both sides and I thought that solved the twig problem beautifully.

00:38:30

Speaker 2: Perhaps there is a similar sort of solution for the larger problem. I've considered offering to contribute towards or split the arborist cost but I'm certain my wife would disapprove of this

00:38:41

Speaker 2: kind regards ricardo

00:38:43

Speaker 1: ricardo. Thank you for the question and thank you for providing us with enough details to really get into it a little bit and and answer some questions that would usually depend on a few. It depends that we don't know the answer to

00:38:57

Speaker 2: before

00:38:58

Speaker 1: we get into the details. Big picture. I just want to say neighbors and neighbors.

00:39:07

Speaker 2: I believe

00:39:08

Speaker 1: there is it a chapter or a section in the book that's called neighbors lizzie post.

00:39:12

Speaker 2: There is there is it's living living with others. We combine two chapters, neighbors and and living with others and

00:39:20

Speaker 2: and neighbors definitely occupies about half of that entire chapter because it is it's really tough.

00:39:26

Speaker 1: It's not a small section and I'm remembering some of the language in it where we talk about how relationships with neighbors can be tricky because you share space, you live together. But they're not necessarily people who you're very close to or necessarily share a lot of bonds

00:39:43

Speaker 2: with

00:39:44

Speaker 1: outside that proximity question.

00:39:47

Speaker 1: And on the flip side

00:39:50

Speaker 1: when neighbors come together, you get communities and when people are able to figure out a good balance with their neighbors, enough interaction to work through issues and support each other. And also enough space to live independent lives and feel

00:40:04

Speaker 1: free and like you have private time and space,

00:40:07

Speaker 1: it's really remarkable and everybody wants to be part of a community. That's a remarkable community

00:40:13

Speaker 2: because I remember when I was writing for house dot com and the two articles that got the biggest reaction the most comments were the Shoes on Shoes Off. Not a surprise there. And just the issue of dealing with a difficult neighbor or with a neighbor that you want to raise an issue with, maybe you have a great relationship with them

00:40:33

Speaker 2: That spawned something like 700

00:40:37

Speaker 1: comments with

00:40:38

Speaker 2: people describing everything from great neighbors where the relationship tanked as soon as you ask something of them,

00:40:46

Speaker 2: two great neighbors who are really helpful to terrible relationships that often in, you know, involved calling like an H. O. A. Or sometimes even more disturbingly the police, like it went so far and wide.

00:41:02

Speaker 2: It made me so grateful for my neighbors here in Burlington. I know that I've mentioned on the show before that during the pandemic. I really became very grateful for my immediate community surrounding my house and how

00:41:17

Speaker 2: seeing them walking out and about really helped me get through the isolation I experienced

00:41:22

Speaker 2: and just how much I appreciated that. But neighbors, it is amazing to see how they can impact us in both positive and negative ways. And I really value that ricardo is coming to this with a

00:41:38

Speaker 2: goal of bettering his relationship with these neighbors and not wanting to to make it worse or do something that

00:41:45

Speaker 2: that could feel like overreaching.

00:41:48

Speaker 1: It's the best place to start.

00:41:50

Speaker 1: And it sounds like this is a pretty good relationship in a lot of ways. It sounds like there's some understanding about who these people are, what their situation is, that there's been some good cooperation between them on other

00:42:03

Speaker 1: other projects or other issues and

00:42:06

Speaker 1: that there are even a couple of lines of communication, there's some social media communication, there's some in person communication, there's even some shared work that's happened.

00:42:14

Speaker 1: And while there's a particular issue a tree and

00:42:19

Speaker 1: there could be some money involved or some attachment to a tree

00:42:22

Speaker 1: that there's a relationship going on around that issue that I think you can you can build and I think that's as you say, the best possible place that you could be starting here,

00:42:33

Speaker 1: I would want some real clarity about the issue itself before I got into the details of the relationship. I'd want to know what it was okay for me to ask and what is okay for me to expect.

00:42:45

Speaker 1: And you can make a lot of requests of a neighbor. But there's something different about a request that you make that's about something that they're responsible for to some other organization or party. So if there's some sort of neighborhood rules or local zoning that requires people to trim trees that

00:43:04

Speaker 1: hang over someone else's property,

00:43:06

Speaker 1: I think you really want to know that because that's gonna

00:43:09

Speaker 1: affect the way that you have this discussion and what is reasonable for you to ask and in what ways you ask.

00:43:16

Speaker 1: So I would definitely be sure to know that before I got started.

00:43:19

Speaker 2: Absolutely. I know that in some places

00:43:22

Speaker 2: the part of the tree that hangs over on the property gets dealt with by the person on that property and the

00:43:28

Speaker 1: part of the tree that

00:43:29

Speaker 2: deals with the the rest of it is that persons and some people have some very odd looking trees due to that. And I know there are a lot of neighbors who question, you know, well if the trees on their property

00:43:40

Speaker 2: today should come over and pick up my leaves or something like that. You know,

00:43:44

Speaker 2: and it is really nice when cities, towns and communities or planned communities have some

00:43:51

Speaker 1: sort of ruling

00:43:52

Speaker 2: about this because it does give you a place to go and move forward from.

00:43:56

Speaker 2: I think with that. I would also be fairly gentle with whatever that that ruling is or those parameters that you discover about this type of neighbor issue that can arise

00:44:09

Speaker 2: The reason for that is because you are dealing with two 20somethings and it sounds like this is the first time they are caring for a house kind of on their own. And even if the parents are giving them advice or in contact regularly, they're the ones who have to do it. They're the ones who have to implement everything and figure it out.

00:44:27

Speaker 2: And I can remember at 24 when I bought my house,

00:44:31

Speaker 2: it was a lot to take on and learn and it happened slowly over time but different issues, you know whether it was that my neighbor had to ask my permission to move his fence a little bit further onto my property. And that actually it was something we had to to do very carefully and very legally, but at the same time I was happy to accommodate it because I knew what it was gonna help on their side and it really didn't bother me or affect me on my side. Plus I was getting an entire privacy fence that someone else was building. So I was trying to be really, really generous where I could because I couldn't afford to pay for half of the fence.

00:45:12

Speaker 2: So just to remember you're working with people who are really new

00:45:15

Speaker 2: to the ins and outs of owning a home and that to kind of have some patients in your pocket as you deal with that.

00:45:22

Speaker 1: I think thinking of formulating all of your asks as requests and being really careful with your language is

00:45:30

Speaker 1: something that I would really commit to.

00:45:32

Speaker 1: That you're always asking someone else to do something that you're not in a position where you get to tell them and whatever level of expectation has built up for you in your own mind that you're really careful with your communication. That that expectation doesn't come through either in terms of your word choice or your tone and your approach when when you're speaking

00:45:52

Speaker 1: with your neighbors.

00:45:54

Speaker 1: I was also really interested in the willingness to potentially contribute if you could get that worked out with your wife. I think that's a really reasonable offer to make

00:46:06

Speaker 2: dan. I love that first piece of advice to frame things in terms of requests, especially if we don't know if you found out legally that this tree is their responsibility.

00:46:17

Speaker 2: But I also think that I want to move the method of communication to being that more in person or if you have their phone numbers um using the phone to communicate with them. It sounds like that

00:46:30

Speaker 2: moment last fall where they were picking up the branches that had fallen and they're getting rid of this big dead branch that fell and they're mowing each other's lawns and stuff

00:46:41

Speaker 2: that that came about from good communication.

00:46:44

Speaker 2: And what I'm seeing here is that you sent something via social media, which I think had some really good suggestive things in them, you know, free consultations and stuff like that.

00:46:56

Speaker 2: I think it, you know could border on that. Splaining territory but at the same time I think, you know, because it was all free stuff and it was just at the level of consultation. I think it was probably pretty appropriate.

00:47:07

Speaker 2: And I feel like when you heard the response of the sister who said, oh I completely forgot about that. That that's so classic, right? Like we don't always operate from social media as our sort of to build a task list necessarily. But I think a direct conversation with you might be more memorable. It would also probably be something that I would suggest you could check in on again.

00:47:35

Speaker 2: So it might be that you say to them something like I really loved how last fall we kind of joined forces to tackle the debris of the tree and getting things buttoned up, you know before the winter. And I'd love to apply that to trying to figure out how to handle the tree if it's helpful. And that

00:47:55

Speaker 2: might mean that you're going to do some labor to help. It might mean that you chip in. It might mean

00:48:00

Speaker 2: that you just help by making a few guided suggestions. Like oh there's also this company that I heard about? That might be a good one for us to try, do you want to call them or would you like me to initiate a phone call? You know something like that might help.

00:48:15

Speaker 2: Although I do, even having just said that the arbor's probably do want to speak to whoever owns the property that's probably a bit more important. So you might they might need to be making those phone calls

00:48:25

Speaker 2: but those would be some of the first steps I think I would try

00:48:28

Speaker 2: at this particular point I think I would want to go more one on one face to face and with some follow ups directed by me. But were there really

00:48:38

Speaker 2: taking on

00:48:39

Speaker 1: the the

00:48:40

Speaker 2: figuring it out I

00:48:41

Speaker 1: guess

00:48:42

Speaker 2: probably the way I would divide the work.

00:48:44

Speaker 1: No, that makes sense to me. I like you was thinking that the more communication that can happen in person, the better chance you have both in terms of the memorable nature of it and

00:48:55

Speaker 1: in terms of your ability to communicate with subtlety, to communicate your good intent, your goodwill, your high regard for them, all of those things are are just much easier to do in person than in that very limited

00:49:08

Speaker 1: opportunity that social media provides. Yeah

00:49:11

Speaker 2: and fleeting opportunity that social media provides too Right.

00:49:15

Speaker 1: Yes, I was thinking a little bit about the finances and I think you can get really tricky when you try to guess at someone else's financial situation.

00:49:26

Speaker 2: I totally understand that.

00:49:28

Speaker 1: I think there's a certain wisdom to being aware of where people are operating from financially and I think that

00:49:34

Speaker 1: if that awareness helps you be more patient, be more tolerant, be more understanding,

00:49:40

Speaker 1: sort of broaden your acceptance and understanding. I think that it can be really helpful.

00:49:46

Speaker 1: I think if making guesses about where someone's operating from financially is making you feel like they should do more or they could and they're not

00:49:55

Speaker 1: that those are good times to remind yourself for all of us to remind ourselves that we really don't know where anyone else is operating from financially and you might think to yourself this

00:50:06

Speaker 1: within the constellation of costs associated with a home is very reasonable. They should be able to do it.

00:50:13

Speaker 1: It's, it's just really hard to know exactly what someone else is operating from in terms of their financial parameters. So, but I wouldn't let that factor into my decision making too, too much in terms of my expectation level on my neighbors.

00:50:26

Speaker 2: Yeah, those should scan can definitely get us very quickly into a mind space that we ha ha shouldn't be in. I used to have a therapist that had a little card, you could take home if you wanted to and it had should and then a giant red circle with an X through it.

00:50:42

Speaker 1: A no should flash card.

00:50:45

Speaker 2: No, should know should platform. Yeah,

00:50:49

Speaker 1: yes,

00:50:50

Speaker 2: dan, the last thing I want to bring up because I know this has been a very long answer and I do feel like we could tease it out so far at this

00:50:57

Speaker 1: point

00:50:58

Speaker 2: is that well, I think it's totally fine to be raising these subjects

00:51:04

Speaker 2: that you, you really want listening to be your response as much as possible. Leave room to listen. It's okay to, to raise the question to ask the question to even make a request

00:51:17

Speaker 2: but really put on those good listening skills when you get your answer back. Did you notice the person just completely,

00:51:25

Speaker 2: you know, crumble under the weight of the thought of dealing with this. Did they immediately talk about finances being a problem for it or did they say they just don't know where to go, really listen to this response

00:51:38

Speaker 2: and then you can respond to it. But I think that oftentimes you're right, you can't control other people, you don't want to come across explaining to them. And one of the best ways to achieve that is when you broach something to just simply listen as your response to it

00:51:55

Speaker 1: being prepared for a solution that

00:51:58

Speaker 1: maybe you hadn't already envisioned or wasn't the one that you would think of as most ideal is I think a good mental exercise to help facilitate that listening

00:52:07

Speaker 2: ricardo, it sounds like you're a great neighbor and it sounds like you're in a great neighborhood and we really hope that our advice is going to help you and these two sisters living next door to you form a really great neighbor bond in the coming

00:52:22

Speaker 1: years

00:52:26

Speaker 1: taking out trees that interfere with the growth of others and taking out trees that are not healthy.

00:52:31

Speaker 1: Look at this one

00:52:33

Speaker 1: that's right. Put a marker on it. Mr so that when the loggers come around they'll know it's to be removed.

00:52:44

Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram. We are at Emily Post institute and on facebook we are the Emily Post Institute.

00:53:08

Speaker 1: Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:53:18

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00:53:38

Speaker 2: and to those of you who are already sustaining members. We thank you so much for your support.

00:53:43

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover. And today we are delighted to have a voice mail from Carrie who left us this piece of feedback.

00:53:55

Speaker 2: The reason why I'm calling is about the couple whose in laws want them to tell them how much was spent for wedding presents.

00:54:04

Speaker 2: The first time I heard the letter, I popped into my head and then today I listen to this week's episode. I think the couple should just make a copy of the list and give it to the m loss because it does make sense for, you know how families work in weird ways

00:54:20

Speaker 2: and then the in laws aren't asking the couple's so they're not involved in the whole situation. And yet the parents now have the list that they can refer back to.

00:54:30

Speaker 2: That's what I would do if it was me. My in laws were constantly asking who gave you what

00:54:35

Speaker 2: from my wedding that happened, you know, a few years back. I just give them a list and move on.

00:54:40

Speaker 2: Anyway. I'd like to see what you think about that. Take care and thanks for all you do. I really enjoy listening every week by Cary, thank you so much for the feedback. I think we should like have you on as a guest like etiquette podcaster because that is such a good piece of advice. Just give him the list.

00:55:00

Speaker 2: I have no idea if we said that or not in our answer, but I think we should have just give him the list. They want the list. You don't want to deal with them asking you for the list. Just give him the list. I love it.

00:55:10

Speaker 1: Cary, thank you so much for the very practical advice.

00:55:14

Speaker 1: Apparently this question inspired a lot of thoughts because we have another piece of feedback. Also on the same question. This one came from Aria.

00:55:22

Speaker 1: I was in the exact same situation as Melissa with the wedding gift list and question from my then in laws. I felt exactly the same way. In my case. However, they were asking my then wife and she didn't feel it was strange at all.

00:55:36

Speaker 1: I eventually realized however, that I was being unkind in assuming that the reason they were asking the question was in order to match the value of the gift in return. In at least some of the cases, there was a significant imbalance in the financial situations between the people involved in trying to give the benefit of the doubt. I can absolutely see where, for example,

00:55:57

Speaker 1: if knowing a close friend's son who was in a certain financial situation gave disproportionately to their means

00:56:04

Speaker 1: might be used as a guideline to how strongly second or third order relationships are valued. I don't know if Melissa's in laws stated explicitly why they want to know, but if they have not, then it might be best not to repeat my mistake by assuming

00:56:20

Speaker 2: I really like that. I like that too. Oh, this is good. You know, this was not the question I was expecting

00:56:27

Speaker 2: Over the past few months. That would get this much feedback. But I really like how people are thinking about this in different ways. We've had it cherished item that you might actually really appreciate, you know, 25 years down the line. Um, we've now heard the idea of just give them their own copy of the list.

00:56:47

Speaker 2: And I like this one that doesn't that because, you know, in etiquette, we try not to assume and I like this that we don't want to assume that the in laws are doing it just to match,

00:56:57

Speaker 2: but it might indicate where someone was incredibly generous and giving and supportive towards the couple.

00:57:07

Speaker 2: You know, and and when maybe it would have been a harder person. You know, you can kind of see like, wow, that person was able to give that gift, They really put a lot of effort forth or they really

00:57:18

Speaker 2: honored this particular marriage and we want to, we want to make sure we do that for them. I like that. I like that kind of thinking,

00:57:26

Speaker 1: it kind of follows in the spirit of our earlier question where we were saying, you know, thinking about other people's finances can be beneficial if it's

00:57:35

Speaker 1: helping you find a more generous and broader

00:57:38

Speaker 2: approach. As

00:57:39

Speaker 1: long as it's not something that you're leaning too much into assumptions in ways that make you critical or evaluating things based on things that you don't know. Yeah,

00:57:50

Speaker 2: Ari and Kerry, thank you so much for your feedback. We really appreciate you writing in

00:57:56

Speaker 1: and

00:57:56

Speaker 2: thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please do

00:57:59

Speaker 1: keep them coming. You can send your feedback or

00:58:01

Speaker 2: update to awesome etiquette

00:58:03

Speaker 1: Emily post dot com or

00:58:04

Speaker 2: Leave us a voicemail or text at (802) 858 kind. That's 8 028585

00:58:09

Speaker 1: 46.

00:58:16

Speaker 1: It's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today I'll actually be bowing out and lizzie Post will be diving deeper with Lindsay jones of the woman getting married website and they are going to geek out on some wedding trends that people can't stand courtesy of lizzie's favorite, a buzzfeed list ical

00:58:37

Speaker 2: audience. I am so happy to be here with Lindsay jones of the woman getting married website and the creator of the wedding class, which you can find via Emily post dot com Lindsay. I reached out to you when this buzzfeed list ical came across my news feed and its 13 things that people find cringe or can't stand at weddings

00:59:00

Speaker 2: And while we won't be able to get through all 13. I thought it'd be really fun to pick apart a few of them and chat with one of my favorite people in the wedding world about these things. See if we agree, disagree, have better solutions.

00:59:14

Speaker 2: I thought it would be so much fun to chat with one of my favorite people in the wedding world about some of these and see if we agree

00:59:21

Speaker 2: disagree, have better solutions. What do you think? Are you ready? Well, I'm, I'm ready. I just love being able to talk to you. So this is just fun for me anyway. But yes, I love talking about cringe e wedding moments anytime.

00:59:36

Speaker 2: Awesome, awesome. Well, I'm hoping our audience enjoys it too and hopefully gets very opinionated about it and writes in with some of their thoughts on some of these wedding trends or commonalities that tend to happen.

00:59:48

Speaker 2: Some of them are based in etiquette and some of them are not. And so it'll it'll be interesting to run through. But

00:59:54

Speaker 2: the first two, I feel like we could create an entire show, not just a post group segment about them because it's about plus ones and unknown guests. And so two of the comments on the lists were the first one was stop getting mad at hosts for not giving you a plus one in 2022 weddings are expensive and they don't always want to pay for your s. O that they have never met.

01:00:19

Speaker 2: So that was one comment. One of the other ones on the list was guests should try to avoid inviting strangers to intimate weddings as their plus one, they make it awkward and they're also in all photos of the event, despite the fact that the quote unquote relationships are short term,

01:00:38

Speaker 2: and I felt like there were a couple of things that were missing the mark in these two comments, but I also get where they're coming from. What were your initial thoughts when you read those too?

01:00:49

Speaker 2: Well. So my initial thoughts are that yes, I think that sometimes inviting strangers to a wedding can be awkward, but I do think that,

01:00:59

Speaker 2: look, I mean, you know, there's instances where a lot of friends live across the country, right? And you could be dating somebody for a year and those friends are getting married that have given you a plus one, have never met your your significant other. So I think that

01:01:16

Speaker 2: there's going to be instances where you might be inviting,

01:01:20

Speaker 2: you know, somebody who's a stranger to the couple and everybody else there. So I think that that's

01:01:26

Speaker 2: okay. But I do think that it's important as a couple when you're planning the wedding to really consider

01:01:34

Speaker 2: what your plus one strategy is. And you and I talked about this in the wedding class where you kind of have to make a blanket rule for everybody, right? So if you invite

01:01:44

Speaker 2: A plus one for one friend, it should be the same rule for every friend across the board. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the same same with, like children's ages, you know, if you're gonna make a cut off no kids under 14 or something, you really want to stick to that type of rule? I feel like weddings are expensive and I understand that, but when it comes to the etiquette of

01:02:06

Speaker 2: inviting someone's significant other, if they're in a committed relationship at the time that the invitations are being issued, especially a relationship where people live together,

01:02:17

Speaker 2: I don't want to say you don't have a choice. But socially, from an etiquette perspective, that's an automatic inclusion. It's not even a plus one, it's just that's that that's an invitee, You know what I mean? Whereas I think plus one is really for someone who is in that state, like I am being single, where, you know, you might hear a little bit about about first dates or something like that, but you're not hearing about, you know, for me it would be a boyfriend and

01:02:44

Speaker 2: that I think is really different from someone who's dating someone that you just haven't ever met before. You know what I mean? And they're, like you said in the beginning or in a really committed relationship. So just to be clear from an etiquette perspective, significant others who are really established couples, whether or not the hosts or the couple have actually met

01:03:04

Speaker 2: that person socially, we group that couple as as an automatic invitation, but from the guest side of it, I thought it was an interesting one to hear that guests should avoid inviting strangers.

01:03:18

Speaker 2: My brain immediately went to the idea of like, oh, so should you like look for a friend of the couple who wasn't invited to the wedding then, like, that got awkward and then it got more awkward when I thought about choosing not to invite that. It was like, I could not find something that was not awkward about that,

01:03:34

Speaker 2: but I think from an etiquette perspective, the general rule is that if you give someone a plus one, it's really up to them to choose who it is that they invite, they might invite a sibling, they might invite a best friend. And I think as a guest, the considerate thing to do is really think about who is gonna be a good wedding participant, who is gonna be a good wedding guest, you know, I'm just gonna proudly boast that I'm a really good wedding plus one because I know the rules, right,

01:04:05

Speaker 1: okay. But

01:04:07

Speaker 2: I'm also, I'm also someone who can talk easily to strangers. And so like recently I was a plus one at a

01:04:13

Speaker 2: reunion, so not a wedding, but my friend was like, I want to go to my reunion. None of my friends from my close friends from my class can go, would you come with me,

01:04:21

Speaker 2: so that I just kind of have a buddy. And I was like totally and

01:04:25

Speaker 2: I loved getting to talk to random people stir up conversation, I knew how to let her shine, I knew how to step back, you know, like, and I think that thinking more so as a guest about inviting someone who can really be a great plus one at a wedding is, is the way I would go rather than

01:04:45

Speaker 2: don't invite a stranger, you know? Yeah, totally. But also that's the beauty of going to weddings, that's why I love them is that you get to meet strangers, That's the whole fun of it, you know, like you get people

01:04:57

Speaker 2: that are maybe outside of your everyday kind of, you know, friend group. I just went to a wedding a couple weeks ago and we didn't know anybody except the parents of the couple. We didn't even know the couple and we walked to what happened, it happened and we walked away from that wedding with like, you know, another couple that we met there that actually lives um in Miami where we live and we went out to dinner with them and it was just like fun because we met all these strangers. So I I don't feel like they're like stranger danger at a wedding. I think you should

01:05:36

Speaker 2: be open to that. Um and especially now I will say as a side note that now that we're coming out of this pandemic and you know, a lot of couples are being forced to plan weddings that are a couple of years out. I mean there's a really good chance that

01:05:52

Speaker 2: if you don't give them a plus one in a couple of years, they're gonna be in a relationship,

01:05:56

Speaker 2: so I think maybe not my breakup might have happened right, totally. So so I think I'll just be open to the idea of, you know, if you have good friends giving them a plus one, if you're a guest being open to whoever that might be.

01:06:15

Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely.

01:06:17

Speaker 2: So one of the next ones that I picked out from the list was about introductions, and this is sort of that moment where the couple, but sometimes also the bridal party get announced at the reception and brought in and sometimes that kind of sounds like you might be at like some kind of sports event and

01:06:38

Speaker 2: and other times it's just it's very simple,

01:06:41

Speaker 2: but the quote from the list was why do we need intros for the bridesmaids and groomsmen? It's even worse when it's a horrible song they're walking and dancing to. So awkward

01:06:53

Speaker 2: and I certainly know I remember when those viral videos first started a couple of, not a couple of years ago, probably like over a decade ago now, people doing some kind of dance and wearing sunglasses, like either down the aisle or into the reception hall or something like that for for me, I was and this I wouldn't really say this is an etiquette point, but style wise, if I was throwing a wedding, I probably would not ask my M. C. To be doing like, big announcements of people,

01:07:24

Speaker 2: it's just not my style, but what do you think? Because for some people, I think they have a lot of fun with this. Yeah. And I really do think that the intros have become a moment at the wedding reception that really allow you to personalize. Um It's so I think that that's become like the one place where you can

01:07:43

Speaker 2: really kind of do something fun.

01:07:45

Speaker 2: Remember that viral video? I think it was the beginning of the pandemic where the guy was skateboarding to Fleetwood Mac song. Right? Remember, I don't know it, but now I want to go find it. Yes, he was skateboarding to Dreams. I think it was a song.

01:08:01

Speaker 2: And then so I've seen like a couple like wedding intros or where the wedding party is skateboarding into that song.

01:08:07

Speaker 2: And it was kind of fun. And I think it's like a fun moment to to do something potentially viral. And look that doesn't appeal to every couple. Like that wouldn't be me either. But it is the one thing I kind of laughed a little bit to myself when I saw that. It's usually to some horrible song because I sort of micro manager, our wedding playlist, but I gave my husband cory

01:08:31

Speaker 2: free reign to pick whatever intro song you want. So it was like the most random song of the evening because I was like, okay pick whatever song you want. So I wonder if like other couples are doing that. They're like, oh, pick whatever song you want for this doesn't matter

01:08:47

Speaker 2: audience. We definitely want to hear from you on that that introduction of the bridal party at the reception, what do you think of it? Do you think it's still a fun moment? Do you, would you would you personally go classy? Would you go showy? What would you do? Would you try to ham it up? We'd love to hear your thoughts.

01:09:05

Speaker 2: Okay, the next one on the list is I think I've seen it get

01:09:11

Speaker 1: just

01:09:12

Speaker 2: burned lately and I know what I would do, but I'm curious to think of what you would do. So the next one on the list was the bouquet toss. I'm going with the bouquet toss. I think some people find it funny,

01:09:26

Speaker 2: but for weddings where the bride's aren't 22 I think it's just cringe e and putting the same emphasis and expectations of marriage on every single woman at the wedding.

01:09:36

Speaker 2: It just seems outdated and it makes a lot of women feel awkward. We've had some questions about this on the show recently, I've also just seen entire like articles written about how distasteful the bouquet toss is and I'm finding that what most people are upset about

01:09:54

Speaker 2: is that it's a time to call out single women and it assumes that all single women a

01:10:00

Speaker 2: want this attention, want to participate and are looking to get married as a single woman. I definitely appreciate people calling those things out, but

01:10:09

Speaker 2: I'm a sucker for the bouquet toss. I just want it to be for everyone. Like, I'm picturing that scene in Father of the bride, the one with steve martin where she's at the top of the stairs and everybody's gathered below and it's like, it could, it could land in your nephews lap, It could land anywhere. It doesn't have to be that.

01:10:28

Speaker 2: I'm also remembering the scene in sex in the city where they throw the bouquet and it lands in front of all three of them and they just look at it like,

01:10:36

Speaker 2: okay, weddings over by like, but what do you think? Did you do a bouquet toss? Do you like the bouquet toss? What's your thoughts on it? I did not do a bouquet toss because I, yeah, I just felt like it was awkward. And also, I didn't have any

01:10:54

Speaker 1: single

01:10:54

Speaker 2: friends. I think I had like, one or two that were like, not dating anybody. And I felt like why call them out? And you know, I got, you know, I was older when I got married. So I think that a depends on your age. Um, I've seen a lot of videos on Tiktok where

01:11:12

Speaker 2: people are using this bouquet toss as you know, as a moment to propose.

01:11:17

Speaker 2: So there's this kind of like thing where like the bride is has staged it

01:11:24

Speaker 2: with the person who's proposing and then, you know, they kind of like, you know, hand the bouquet behind them and it goes to the person who's about to get proposed to in this like really kind of awkward moment.

01:11:34

Speaker 2: But I think that

01:11:37

Speaker 2: yeah, I I do think it's outdated and I think it can be really awkward for people if you have a ton of single friends, then you know, do it if you're into it,

01:11:47

Speaker 2: but I think it depends on your age and your friends. But yeah, I think it's kind of going the way that the garter tosses where it's kind of like icky and people really, really don't need it

01:12:01

Speaker 1: anymore.

01:12:03

Speaker 2: Yeah. Would you do the version that I just wanting validation here, I guess, would you do the version with everybody or do you think just nicks the bouquet toss all together?

01:12:15

Speaker 2: Well, I kind of get like, superstitious isn't the word. But you know, the bouquet toss is normally, you know, it's like whoever catches it, that's who's gonna get married next. So if you can come up with like, another thing that it represents, then

01:12:31

Speaker 2: go for it, right, then. That could be interesting. I've seen I've seen um

01:12:37

Speaker 2: I'm kind of a twist on the bouquet toss where they actually just give the bride gives the bouquet to the woman who's been married the longest and it's kind of like the sweet kind of like moment. I have never heard of that, that is precious. I like that. Yeah, that's a new idea. If you don't want to do the bouquet toss, you could just have the bride

01:12:58

Speaker 2: present and whether it's formalized or not, you could just present it to the person who's been married the longest. I know sometimes they do the dances where it's like, you know they everyone who's been together one year, everyone who's been together

01:13:10

Speaker 2: 10, and you know at the end it's like one couple has been together for like 65 years. That would be another way to honor that. I really, really like that one.

01:13:21

Speaker 2: Okay, this next one is I think really interesting. Um it's about not feeding guests and the quote is I've seen an alarming number of people on the internet who think it's okay not to feed wedding guests because quote unquote, they don't have the money

01:13:40

Speaker 2: and then the response is like, okay, that's fine. Then don't have a party,

01:13:45

Speaker 2: you're asking people to take their time and resources for you and you won't even give them a sandwich and some Hawaiian punch.

01:13:51

Speaker 2: I loved the idea of the sandwich and Hawaiian punch because one of the things we've always tried to encourage people about is that like it can be so overwhelming when you're planning a wedding to see the costs add up and to see just how how much you're getting charged for everything

01:14:07

Speaker 2: and it can be easy to think of things like let's just throw a dance party, we don't need food

01:14:12

Speaker 2: and really when you're talking about inviting people to an event that's, I mean anywhere from like four to like eight hours long. I feel like you need to be able to provide them some kind of sustenance to keep them going. And

01:14:28

Speaker 2: one of the things I always loved was saying, you don't have to have a reception, that's a three course sit down meal or a giant gorgeous buffet.

01:14:36

Speaker 2: You can have a beautiful, like, um, we often call it like a punch and cookie type reception. Um, and that can be really okay, but you want to make it clear

01:14:47

Speaker 2: through all the rest of the invitation and the styling of the event that, that would fit the vibe if you throw some really formalized event, you know, in a gorgeous hall or at a beautiful venue that has all the markings of sort of a traditional wedding and you miss the meal

01:15:07

Speaker 2: that is going to throw people off. But if you say we're doing a,

01:15:10

Speaker 2: like often this would be for a more casual wedding.

01:15:13

Speaker 1: So you'd

01:15:14

Speaker 2: say we're doing, you know, the invitations would be more casual. The types of things you describe on your wedding website would be more casual. That's where I think something like a punching cookies type reception could fit in

01:15:26

Speaker 1: nicely.

01:15:28

Speaker 1: So

01:15:28

Speaker 2: yeah, I think that not feeding guests at a wedding is definitely not something you should ever consider, but I mean I get really

01:15:37

Speaker 1: kind

01:15:38

Speaker 2: of picky about not having full bar at a wedding either. So like let alone food. I mean you're not serving, if you're not serving a full bar or at least

01:15:48

Speaker 2: wine and beer, then I'm really sensitive to that also unless you're having a dry wedding. But yeah, don't invite me to event that you're not having some sort of alcohol. I'm sure there are many people that would agree with you on that 11 of the next one on the list was speeches and the quote was learn the difference between a toast and a speech. A toast is not a speech and a speech is not a toast. A toast is a congrats to the couple and should be brief

01:16:19

Speaker 2: to mike and joan may their lives be happy

01:16:21

Speaker 2: speeches are pointless and boring. Neither toast nor speeches are required. Just tell your DJ not to give the mic to anybody. You didn't approve beforehand and start the party.

01:16:33

Speaker 1: Yes.

01:16:34

Speaker 2: I like a lot of the, I like both toasts and speeches. I like the difference between the two that was spelled out.

01:16:41

Speaker 2: But my big thing has always been, don't make your speech about you and your connection to the couple or the, you know,

01:16:49

Speaker 2: a specific member of the couple instead make it about the couple. You know, like I'm always so impressed with how they take care with one another or something like that.

01:17:01

Speaker 2: But when you make it all about how she's been, my best friend since, you know, two years old and I'm saying like, you can be so happy and that's a beautiful sentiment, but just make it more about them than about you.

01:17:15

Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely. I think that

01:17:16

Speaker 1: that's totally

01:17:18

Speaker 2: Great advice and also keeping it short right? Like they should all be your speech, not your toes obviously, but the speeches should be less than four minutes long

01:17:27

Speaker 2: because you're paying for this event if you're the couple right, like you don't want 30 minutes out of your five hour event to go to two speeches I think, you know, you hear from, you know, a couple of key people and then that's it, you start the party and, and you

01:17:46

Speaker 2: yeah, you just have fun. Keep them short and sweet as

01:17:49

Speaker 2: is spot

01:17:49

Speaker 1: on,

01:17:50

Speaker 2: totally. That's definitely the advice we have in the 20th edition. Now at this point to yes

01:17:58

Speaker 2: Lindsay, thank you so much for joining me to go through some of these. It's really fun. I know you and I often talk on the phone and go over this kind of stuff regularly and it was really fun to bring it to the podcast audience. We would love love, love, love to hear your opinion on a bunch of these

01:18:17

Speaker 2: and find out whether you've done something different that worked really well or whether you share opinions or disagree with some of the opinions.

01:18:24

Speaker 2: It's really fun to, to hear everybody's perspective on all these kind of, classic elements of weddings and whether or not they're worth it or not Lindsay, thank you so much for joining us. Where can folks find you if they want to connect or if they'd love to purchase the wedding

01:18:39

Speaker 1: class.

01:18:40

Speaker 1: Thank

01:18:41

Speaker 2: you so much for having me. You can find me and my wedding advice on a woman getting married dot com and of course on the wedding class dot com, which is our wedding planning guide with advice from amazing experts like Lizzy and I think it's, yeah, it's, it's always so fun to talk to you and I hope we get to do it again soon.

01:19:04

Speaker 2: I hope so too. Thanks so

01:19:05

Speaker 1: much for joining us

01:19:06

Speaker 2: today. Thank you.

01:19:15

Speaker 1: Okay.

01:19:23

Speaker 2: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms Today we have a salute from David

01:19:34

Speaker 1: greetings, awesome etiquette team happy almost summer. I'm hoping your respective vacations were delightful and Lizzy was a success setting up the homes for her first time.

01:19:45

Speaker 2: I have an etiquette

01:19:46

Speaker 1: salute for you to preface it. I was fortunate in my career to work for some excellent leaders and then lucky to be in a position to pass their good example on to new leaders in that organization and others.

01:19:59

Speaker 1: The most important idea I learned was behavior modeling. It's not what someone says, but how they act consistently that one staff imitates.

01:20:08

Speaker 1: So I'd like to offer a salute to my two favorite podcast hosts, Lizzie Post and Daniel post Senning.

01:20:14

Speaker 1: Often you to answer questions that contain an emotional component or a significant life event. In every case you take time to address the human part first with appropriate congratulations, condolence or concern before answering the question.

01:20:29

Speaker 1: The style of your answers models the very behavior we learn about every week

01:20:34

Speaker 1: kudos to you

01:20:35

Speaker 1: listening since the prehistoric days of the dinner party, download

01:20:39

Speaker 1: your consistency and positivity remain a valued part of my week. Thanks

01:20:45

Speaker 1: best. David. Levinson.

01:20:47

Speaker 2: David, thank you so much. That is is really sweet and um it is something we try to do really hard on the show is to to make sure that when people are stating things the emotional side of their life that we recognize that and don't just blow past it to get to the content of the question. So

01:21:05

Speaker 2: I appreciate that. You recognize that sometimes I worry

01:21:08

Speaker 2: that I do it and it's like an interruption to their story as they tell it, but I'm glad it's registering as as appropriate. Um and in place, given the show that we then go on to talk about, I really really appreciate it and

01:21:24

Speaker 2: just a little personal life detail about the good old D. N. D. Dinner party download days.

01:21:32

Speaker 2: I am meeting up with Brendan Francis noon um in a couple hours to go and hang out in Burlington for a night. He's up visiting Vermont and in my dream of dreams he did exactly what I always hope the people that we meet and

01:21:47

Speaker 2: work with over the years will do. He texted me actually he emailed and then we started texting

01:21:52

Speaker 2: um but we we do have each other's phone numbers but he texted, we got into a text conversation about him coming up and where we might go eat and you know go see the lake and do Burlington like things and so I'm really really excited that we still have that connection um of our of our dinner party download days.

01:22:09

Speaker 1: I was hoping you would mention that lizzie post closed the dinner party download circle. As David probably knows because he's a longtime listener. I usually save the salute and the feedback section. I don't read them when I go over the script and do script

01:22:24

Speaker 2: because I like to

01:22:26

Speaker 1: read them on air with you for the first time and hear them and respond to them

01:22:30

Speaker 1: authentically and genuinely and

01:22:33

Speaker 1: this etiquette salute did what I always hope it will do about halfway through. I got surprised I didn't know that we would be the recipients of it and David, I found it really moving. Thank you so much for the salute

01:22:44

Speaker 1: and

01:22:44

Speaker 2: thank you

01:22:48

Speaker 1: all for listening today and thank you to everyone who sent us something and everyone who supports us on Patreon, please

01:22:56

Speaker 2: connect with us and share the show with friends, family, coworkers,

01:22:59

Speaker 1: strangers,

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Speaker 1: Our show is edited by chris Albertine and assistant produced by Bridget. Thanks Bridget