Episode 414 - Extra Wheels

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy,

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Speaker 1: host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness

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Speaker 1: and welcome to awesome etiquette where

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Speaker 2: we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.

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Speaker 1: On today's show, we take your questions on feeling left out, setting boundaries as a host, hosting tiny house guests and respecting your roommates

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Speaker 1: for

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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about grabbing

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Speaker 1: food from a

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Speaker 2: pot look you weren't invited

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Speaker 1: to plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript on Emily Post's wedding All

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Speaker 2: that's coming

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Speaker 1: up

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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm lizzie post

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Speaker 1: and I'm dan post Senning

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Speaker 2: and I am back at work,

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Speaker 2: your

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Speaker 1: back, you've been at it. In fact, the finish line is in sight, lizzie bows,

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Speaker 2: wait the finish line for what I feel like I just got back. I'm at the beginning again.

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Speaker 1: Okay, thank you for getting me back up to speed. It's friday afternoon, we're recording on a friday afternoon. I was thinking about the weekend,

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Speaker 2: the weekend,

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Speaker 1: your week started on

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Speaker 2: Wednesday. I started

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Speaker 1: feeling like it's friday, that's

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Speaker 2: very true. Now I am caught up to you because yes, the finish line is here two days of rest and relaxation will be coming soon. Probably not soon enough,

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Speaker 2: but it was, it was, it was great to get away for a little bit. I did manage to sneak in some Emily post work while I was on vacation and that was really cool too. I got to do the podcast, The Gilded Gentleman

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Speaker 2: And I believe that episode is going to be airing October 11. So if you haven't already gone over to subscribe to the gilded gentleman, those of you who really enjoyed shows like the gilded would really enjoy this podcast and the hosts actually has a special connection to Emily post because he used to work with us when we were at HarperCollins,

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Speaker 2: Which we actually, we still are at Harpercollins for some of our books, but he was one of the people that closely worked on the 75th edition of Emily Post's etiquette and marketing that book. So it was really cool to get to connect with Carl Raymond and do his podcast and again check out the gilded gentleman. It is, it's a really delightful

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Speaker 1: show. I listen to it while I

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Speaker 2: walk sunny at night, so

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Speaker 1: I haven't heard your, your interview yet. What did you talk about? Can you tease it just a little bit for your

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Speaker 2: We talked, we definitely talked about Emily

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Speaker 2: and what it was like for her growing up in the gilded age and then becoming this person who wrote about etiquette and social norms and things like that. We dipped into a little bit about her father and then we talked about the new book, we we talked about what you might find in it and what it's like working and running a family business and and kind of all of it the classic interview, you know,

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Speaker 1: I do and I sense a number of them coming. So in some ways it's good to hear and develop that thematic thinking and and also just to hear how it went. I'm glad it went well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. No, the hardest question though was what do you think the hardest questions Emily got were the most difficult question she was posed were. And I always end up saying like relationship problems because I think those are hard no matter what era you're writing about them in.

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Speaker 2: But I was trying to think about what Emily would think of as a hard question and that was a really hard little mind twist. I wasn't able to come up with something like wonderful or amazing.

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Speaker 2: That

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Speaker 1: is a tricky mental exercise. I'm so used to thinking of her as the person with all the answers and all the good answers and so composed and so ready to deliver. Trying to imagine what's hard for her is not an exercise. I usually do

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Speaker 2: well. And I can think of the stuff that's like delicate for us to answer or hard. You know, hard because you're trying to hold so many different perspectives and and think about them while you answer a particular question, you know, where

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Speaker 2: does the fork go? I mean it's not a one sentence answer, but it's pretty easy compared to some of our harder questions, especially like about personal things, whether it's I know we had an acne question recently, I know we've talked about things like halitosis or how to ask someone not to be a part of a gathering anymore, like leaving someone out of a tradition, they've been a part of there are some really hard questions that we get,

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Speaker 2: but thinking about what Emily would have thought was hard was just a totally different exercise.

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Speaker 1: Oh, you've just taken me away. I'm trying to imagine, I'm thinking about her about her personal life and maybe she lived in a time where there were a lot more boundaries between your public life and your personal or private life.

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Speaker 1: And I'm wondering if there might have been things about her own life that would have been hard for her to answer or or that would have been difficult to answer or talk about in the public sphere, but I also don't think so. I think she was a pretty integrated person

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Speaker 2: or that she was at least willing to say, I don't want to talk about that if she didn't want to talk about.

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Speaker 2: So it was definitely a tough question, but it was a good one. Good

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Speaker 1: one, good

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Speaker 2: interview and hopefully our audience will get a kick out of and enjoy the gilded gentleman podcast.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you for tackling a little bit more work along with recording last week's podcast while you're on vacation

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Speaker 1: and I think it gives me a little bit of a clue that for you,

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Speaker 2: maybe these

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Speaker 1: podcasts are the least work like part of your work

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Speaker 2: because

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Speaker 1: they're the ones you're willing to take with

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Speaker 2: You. It is, it is something I'm often willing to do even on vacation. I didn't want to upload the ads quite so much for the podcast this week, but I did. But no, it's, it's all, it's all good. It was, it was good to get out. Really good to be on the vineyard for 10 days. That was amazing.

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Speaker 2: I just, I love it down there so, so much I can't wait to go back in october and speaking of dan yes,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask this question on the mic,

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Speaker 2: Will you ask it that way? I don't, I don't steal your thunder. What did you think of the

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Speaker 1: museum? It

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Speaker 2: was so cool. You guys, this museum is so cool. It, first of all, it looks like a big, beautiful kind of victorian house. Like it's just a big, beautiful kind of cape like house and then, but the inside is so very modern

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Speaker 2: and the space is just really cool. Whoever the architect was

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Speaker 1: designed

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Speaker 2: job, it was really well designed

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Speaker 2: and I didn't get to go through the museum quite the same way that you got to go through it with the kids and everything, but going there, meeting our contact Nora, even just talking to the people manning the front desk like they were awesome. It was, it felt like a really great vibe. And so I'm really excited that we're gonna be doing our first public event for the book launch. I believe we settled on a date of october 7th at the Martha's vineyard museum. So you know it,

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Speaker 2: Any of you listeners who might want to pop over to the island for an evening from the Boston area, it's totally within, within reason and you could come to the Martha's Vineyard Museum on October seven and join us for an evening. Talk about Emily etiquette and our new book.

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Speaker 1: I think the event space, there was one of the things that just sucked me in in terms of that whole facility and I could just imagine

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Speaker 1: a fall book event there and I'm just really excited that you were able to both see it and also um lock down the final details for that to the point where we can even announce it and start inviting people.

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Speaker 2: I'm excited. I'm excited. But you know what, I'm also excited for cousin.

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Speaker 1: I think I have some idea

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Speaker 2: getting to some questions,

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Speaker 1: Let's do it,

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions and we need your questions, your feedback and your salutes. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. Please leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind, that's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram. We are at Emily Post institute

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Speaker 1: and on facebook we are the Emily Post Institute. Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.

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Speaker 2: Our first question is titled Feeling fourth wheeled deer awesome etiquette. I've been so excited to discover your podcast recently and I'm so thankful to you both for sharing all your etiquette wisdom. My question revolves around a confusing friendship with another married couple. My husband and I were very close with another couple. We went on trips together for years know each other's families well and have had an active text group when we lived apart.

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Speaker 2: Our group dynamic has been inspiring fun and positive with all of us acknowledging at different times how fun it is to have another couple where everyone gets along equally as that can be rare in the past year and a half. This has changed for me more than for my husband.

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Speaker 2: My husband still gets calls, texts and updates. We have a group text going and when I share something. Crickets, then I'll see my husband's phone light up from his friend texting him directly. There are so many small ways that I feel myself being pushed away, but my husband being kept close. I know I can't force anyone to respond to me a certain way. But what is the best etiquette here for people that are choosing to see

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Speaker 2: stay in my husband's life, inviting him on trips, phone calls and texts and leaving me out. If my husband wasn't close to them, I would just let them go. But since they're still in his life, the whole situation feels very awkward.

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Speaker 2: I'd love to know how to respond in a way that's not just acting out of the hurt of feeling left out. Thank you. The fourth wheel.

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Speaker 1: Oh, fourth wheel, Thank you for the question. And I'm sorry that you've been left feeling this way. It is no fun to feel like the third wheel. The fourth wheel. The fifth wheel just to not feel appreciated or seen or part of something that's going on that is never pleasant.

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Speaker 1: And the process of maintaining friend relationships, how we form them and how they end or resolve or change in our life is something that

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Speaker 1: I

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Speaker 2: don't think gets

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Speaker 1: enough attention or thought. We spend a lot of time thinking about romantic relationships, how they start, how they end and parent

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Speaker 2: child relationships, sibling relationships, but friends, not quite so much.

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Speaker 1: It's a much more ambiguous category. It means different things to different people that can describe a lot of different relationships that look like a lot of different things and that's that's true of a lot of our designations about things. But friend is one of the broadest categories and

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Speaker 1: a couple of friends just adds layers of complication to that already pretty ambiguous categorization

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Speaker 2: dan. There's a point of etiquette to maybe start with and we've talked about it on the show before and that's that traditionally

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Speaker 2: to a lot of different things, couples are invited as a couple that socially you're recognized as a two person unit and two weddings oftentimes birthday parties and

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Speaker 2: and the birthday parties. Maybe not. They might, you know, like the girls might be doing a girls night birthday party or something and that happens. But there's just a lot of social events, dinner parties, you know, family events, stuff like that where you're automatically inviting both people in a romantic partnership. And what I find interesting about what we're dealing with here is that when I see the line

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Speaker 2: In this email that says inviting him on trips, that's the one

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Speaker 1: that's my little

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Speaker 2: red flag up. Now granted you just had to go on a trip without you. She she and William went down to visit a friend and you and the girls stayed up in Vermont. But so it happens, it's not like out of the norm, but it sounds like this was 22 couples who read

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Speaker 2: regularly entertained with one another as couples. And to me it's starting to sound like and I don't know if the other like the genders of the other couple. So I'm just, I am going to make an assumption that this is like the husbands are keeping in touch and and maybe partners have fallen out but I'm not totally sure if that's the dynamic or if it's truly that like

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Speaker 2: the group threat is still going and when the husband responds to it, he gets responses. But when the fourth wheel response to it, they are not getting any responses. So it you know, rather than like a foursome becoming a twosome of just friends, it seems like this is a threesome of friends and a one being left out

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Speaker 1: which does create a much more awkward feeling for me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. In terms of just the way I could reconcile it in my own mind if I was saying to myself, oh well pooches maintained contact with her friend in that couple but says couple friends isn't happening as much anymore.

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Speaker 2: There's

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Speaker 1: a certain logic to that that I think makes it emotionally less challenging. And whereas

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Speaker 1: a group of three excluding one that's a two couple pair I think could feel really painful. That could be a really awkward situation. And if that's what we're talking about here, I really think that a discussion with fourth wheels husband is the place to start. I think that

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Speaker 1: that's the relationship where there's the most standing to really investigate feelings and maybe to to talk out some of the impressions that you're getting and to see if someone else is sensing or feeling the same thing and maybe your husband shares the perspective that's been shared here, that no, there's there's like a distance that's emerged in this four way friendship and I totally feel it too,

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Speaker 1: or it might be that his impression is, oh no, the husbands are taking the lead now or I and the partner on the other

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Speaker 2: side and

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Speaker 1: you can kind of lean on that and we'll put the things together and when, when the event arrives, we'll all be there together and it'll be great. But you know, we're just not texting as a foursome as much now, it's more just just me and the other person and I think you might start to get some information that either

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Speaker 1: affirms what you're, what you're feeling that maybe is actually awkward, but just knowing and having someone else in that space with, you might make it easier to deal with emotionally or you might get a different perspective on what's going on. That that could also give you some different ways to think about and approach the situation

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Speaker 2: dan. One thing that when you and I first talked about this question you brought up was the idea that if you're if you're gonna try to re engage and we know that that this isn't just like, oh, it's a busy holiday season and we've lost touch for a couple of months.

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Speaker 2: These are summer friends and it's winter time a year and a half is both a long time where it might be very reasonable that someone has pulled away. But what's not as reasonable to me is that they're not pulling away from the fourth wheels husband, they're just pulling away from the fourth wheel and so there are times where like friendships go through moments of being more distant and then people re engage and it's lovely and you all feel good again and everything like that,

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Speaker 2: but a year and a half and granted it's a year and a half over the pandemic over over some years that were really tough to connect over. I think it's worth noting that at this stage after of course talking to to husband and finding out his perspective on the matter. I would say that rather than have the kind of conversation

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Speaker 2: where and I hate to put it this way, maybe address is a better word to use. I was going to use the word complain but rather than kind of bringing your grievance to the parties who aren't responding to you, you had talked about really putting a positive spin on all of it and saying boy, I really loved when we did x, y and z would love to set that up again. How about next weekend or at the end of the month or

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Speaker 2: that kind of a thing and really engaging by inviting to reconnect rather than engaging by telling someone all the things that have made you feel not good. I know we do a lot of when you I feel and suggesting that type of language, but this was one place where I thought your idea of just sticking to the positive and trying to move forward

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Speaker 2: might give you a kind of be a good litmus test of whether you're gonna be able to re engage this foursome unit as opposed to just the husband being a part of it.

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Speaker 1: I think there's a question of

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Speaker 2: tone that can

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Speaker 1: accomplish a lot in this kind of a sample script or or conversation or dialogue however you want to, however long it goes on. But I was even thinking that you can you can talk about the grievance but you can put it in a positive context, you can say,

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Speaker 1: you know, Marcy, I was thinking about this thing we used to do together. That was so much fun. I miss that. I would love to set up something like that for next month with you and so and so or for all of us or you can acknowledge that you're feeling the lack or the loss of something, but in a way that that puts it in the context of the reason you're feeling that that that sense of loss is that it was something you really appreciated, you really enjoyed

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Speaker 1: and without placing blame or judgment, you can share that that sense or that feeling as a part of

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Speaker 1: also, as you say, I think really importantly issuing a positive invitation, an invitation that's clear and direct and easy for someone to say yes to. Um, so that they're not left wondering if the grievance is the thing that that that you're really wanting to to share with them. But no, it's it's the good times that you want to share with them, not the grievance.

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Speaker 2: I thought you also brought up something interesting when we were pre talking about this, when we were talking and kind of our prep for for today's show.

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Speaker 2: And that was that. And this is a hard thing to do. But possibly asking your husband if he's seen anything in your behavior or your outreach to them? That might be worth using a little self reflection on and thinking about your own behavior, your own tone, your own engagement. And whether those things may be waned or weren't at their best at any particular point, that might have might have led to some kind of a

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Speaker 2: sort of decline in the communication towards you. But even though these folks are still keeping up with with the husband,

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Speaker 1: it's such a hard thing to do. Yeah. To have a situation where something is not going the way that you want and say to yourself, did I do this somehow, Is there something that I did that contributed to this? And it's not an instinct that's a

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Speaker 1: instinct for me in my mind. So I have to remind myself to do it sometimes. And I can certainly think of examples in life where there was something going on that I didn't like. And I had an intuition about why it was happening. I sort of had a sense. I thought, oh maybe it has to do with this. And sure enough it did and

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Speaker 1: I think sometimes it's worth asking yourself. So you know, do I have an intuition about this? Do I have some sense of where this is coming from and you can test it. Maybe you could get a verification from your spouse or your partner or maybe you could see about modifying it and see if that changes the kind of reaction or response that you get. Hard to know, hard telling, not knowing if I had fourth wheel here. I'd love to ask that question. Say, do you have any instinct? Do you have any sense of

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Speaker 1: of what might have started this? Or maybe it's just the pandemic happened and we're not doing those trips together anymore. So then those major touchstones that have been an anchor for this relationship weren't happening and then the nature of the couple of friendship changed. I think it's it's it's also possible that that's the kind of answer that you'd come up with, but always worth doing a little self reflection when things aren't going the ways that we like it

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Speaker 1: not always some external force or or factor that's that's at play.

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Speaker 2: I think that's a really good point. Really good point to remember the fourth wheel the final thing that we're going to offer to this very difficult and delicate problem is the idea that you can just ask and I think this ask comes across best when it is just a clear and simple ask where

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Speaker 2: you don't try to bring in, like we said, complaining, you keep it positive, but you say something like, hey, I've noticed that our communication style has changed and I just wanted to check in with you and make sure it wasn't something I was done or to give room for you to talk to me about something if by chance there is something I've done but I miss hanging out talking and communicating the way we used to and I'd love to get back to that if we could

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Speaker 2: something like that that kind of gives someone an out but also lets them know you're here and you'd love to rekindle things. I know I had a friendship that I tried to rekindle a couple times, they were going through something tough and they kind of just sunk into themselves during it and

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Speaker 2: I had gotten to the point where I was kind of done reaching out and the final thing that I did was at christmas time last year, I dropped off some homemade treats that are, are things this couple particularly loves and sure enough I got the nicest phone call and we have been hanging out all summer now, but it was two years that we didn't hang out for prior to that and you know, it wasn't a direct ask, but it was a little bit of a touch point

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Speaker 2: and they responded to it and they were in a place where they could re engage our friendship again. And a lot of other friendships too, I learned and it's been really great, but whether whether it's through an ask or or maybe something like what I did, I think it's okay to either be making a little bit of an outreach or or directly finding out what's going on.

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Speaker 1: I love that reminder lizzie post that without feeling taken advantage of or taken for granted

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Speaker 1: that you can just be that positive force, you can keep reaching out and keep providing opportunities to reconnect and in so many ways that's the perfect etiquette, answer. Whatever situation you're faced with, you approach it with grace and with poise and with the spirit of I'm gonna bring my best self to this and that's gonna get the best outcomes no matter what

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Speaker 1: the possibility of those outcomes is. Fourth wheel. We're really sorry that you're in this tough situation, but we also really appreciate you presenting us with a question that has a lot of complexity and a lot of subtlety and we really hope that our answer helps you navigate this situation. Well

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Speaker 1: it's fun to be with people you like, isn't it? Yes, it's always good to be with your friends, your friends at school and your friends at work and your friends at home.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is about a stressed out host, Dear Dan and Lizzie, thank you both for such a wonderful podcast. I look forward to listening to awesome etiquette each week and I always learn something new from both of you and my fellow etiquette enthusiasts. I'm writing to you after being inspired by a question posed in episode 341. Pay me please from March 2021 to inquire about how to manage difficult houseguests and avoid host burnout.

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Speaker 1: My spouse and I live across the continent from our families and friends and one of the most popular tourist destinations in North America. We moved here shortly before the pandemic and had house guests for one or two weeks each month before travel restrictions ceased, our stream of visitors with pandemic travel restrictions lifting. We find ourselves once again fielding a lot of inquiries about people coming to visit.

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Speaker 1: However, one more recent visit has left me feeling stressed out about hosting again, especially for the typical week or two at a time for context. The guests were members of my partner's family, so they will very likely come here again and they stayed with us for 10 days.

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Speaker 1: My spouse was already back working in person at the office, so I served as the primary host. We had previously agreed that we would set a precedent that vacation time would not be used when we have guests so he did not take any time off during this visit.

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Speaker 1: During their stay, I handled multiple adult tantrums complete with tears and foot stomping from both guests over things that were completely out of my control. They also refused to rent a vehicle, take transit or use rideshare apps to get around, which meant I had to drive them to the activities which my spouse and I had pre planned for them each day. To add insult to injury only my spouse, their child was thanked for hosting them at the end of the

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Speaker 2: visit.

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Speaker 1: Apparently they had a wonderful time and cannot wait to return. It was an exhausting experience that has left me feeling wary of having any other house guests in the future. How can I move past this? Less than stellar visit so that I can once again feel excited to welcome overnight guests into our home with consideration and respect. Is there a way we can set boundaries with our guests so that I feel like a host not a doormat,

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Speaker 1: any advice you can provide is greatly appreciated. Thank you again for all that you do to make the world a more considerate and respectful place, sincerely stressed out host.

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Speaker 2: Oh stressed out host, this is another tough one. This is a tough episode

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Speaker 1: but

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Speaker 2: no stressed out host. I think anybody would be stressed out from from the sounds of that visit. I mean tears and foot stomping only using

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Speaker 1: one days.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, 11th of all 10 days. That's like I would put a cap on a week for house guests visit

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Speaker 2: At the most. Like unless you are my best friend or my cousin, I honestly don't want you in my house for 10 days straight. I think that's, that's, that's a lot, two whole weeks. It's, it's a lot

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Speaker 1: sometimes wonder about my own Children. I'm just kidding of course. But don't

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Speaker 2: you want to know exactly. I think everyone who lives with other people can relate like,

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Speaker 2: but no, I think that this is immediately something you and your spouse need to talk about and I can see things like when you have maybe some really elderly parents or grandparents visiting who you might not want them taking public transit and they might not really understand rideshare apps and how to use them to get around and I don't mean that to sound ageist, but

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Speaker 2: there might be really good reasons why you wouldn't try to encourage someone to rent a car, use, use public transit or do a rideshare or something but instead lean completely on you absent of that. This is too much required of you, especially when your partner who this person is really, you know who's related to these guests is um at work all day and not taking time off to to help with that type of hosting.

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Speaker 2: I feel like that's a tough spot that you've been put in with a lot of heavy hosting lifting to do under that circumstances. And there are times when we're gonna feel okay taking that on, we're gonna really care about the people coming to visit in a way that says I am perfectly fine

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Speaker 2: doing this. In fact I know it's going to be what's best and so I'm doing it with bells on essentially but it doesn't sound like that was this particular case. It sounds like these were options offered and you as the personal chauffeur was the only option they chose.

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Speaker 2: But I think talking with the spouse about the problems that you had with the visit, getting their perspective on it and seeing if the two of you as a couple and as the homeowners can come up with or renters can come up with a better plan for how to manage guests or how to be inviting guests and explaining to them what you're able to do and what you're not able to accommodate.

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Speaker 2: Um we talk about that whenever we talk about setting up a trip, you know, oh I won't be able to pick you up from the airport but I will be available for this for you know drop off or something like that, it's perfectly reasonable to state what you can do and what you can't do and I think that's the talk with the spouse and coming up with a

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Speaker 2: plan for next time is really the best solution at least that I can think of right now.

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Speaker 1: I want to really affirm that it's not just reasonable to set boundaries, it's good etiquette, it's important, it's an important positive part of good etiquette to be really clear with guests about

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Speaker 1: what your expectations are as a host, not necessarily of them, but of yourself that they're gonna get to decide how they operate within the parameters that you provide. And I'm thinking about some parameters that are really reasonable starting and

00:30:01

Speaker 1: for the trip. And that might be something that like lizzie said, needs to be discussed with a partner before you talk with other people, but 10 days is a very long stay and I could entirely completely understand hosting parents for that long, really close family, but I wouldn't be thinking of that as a template for my usual house guest stays for a lot of people, there's a very old expression, fish and houseguests stink after three days

00:30:29

Speaker 1: that a weekend is really a very common amount of time because there is something about that third night, that fourth day where enough routine start to develop in the rhythm of the day that that the visit can start to feel like it's really going on or taking people out of their routines

00:30:49

Speaker 1: And taking people out of weekly routines is is starting to ask a lot of somebody, whatever their weekly routine is, whether there's in office job or not. An in office job. It's still a lot to ask of a host to, to break with what is a normal day and to do that for 10 days, the degree to which are available to be a tour guide, whether that's the planning of activities or the hosting of activities. And one way to set some parameters on that

00:31:18

Speaker 1: isn't to say well this is what I'm willing to do for you, but to really define the time that you're gonna need for yourself and think about what that time might sound like maybe talk about it with your spouse or partner and that might be that it's a close enough situation where it just needs to be that you have a certain amount of time in the afternoons to go keep up on your social correspondence and communication or maybe there's work that you do that you need to really be sure you're able to be

00:31:45

Speaker 1: responsible for or even just well enough rested to approach with the right spirit and mental state and that means that you need a nap in the afternoon and it's okay to carve out time for things like nap or recovery of your own head or even a favorite tv show. Um

00:32:01

Speaker 2: I think also we need to get a handle on what type of visit this is I have visits where people come and they're really just using my place to crash at because it's convenient and less expensive than a hotel or an Airbnb type thing

00:32:14

Speaker 2: and they're not looking to come and vacation with me here in Vermont they're looking for a place to stay while they vacation in Vermont and I think that figuring out whether the visit is to come and see you and your partner or whether the visit is to be a convenient location to be based out of is also a really good thing to establish and it might be the kind of thing where you say like oh

00:32:40

Speaker 2: oh that sounds wonderful, you know my partner and I aren't gonna be able to like be full time host but if you just need a place to crash that's great. Now family, you might, if this is a cousin sure you could say that if this is parents, the guest is, they're probably coming to see you and spend time with you

00:32:57

Speaker 2: and then I might even consider whether or not that that should be paid vacation, you know or sorry vacation time that that your partner takes off from work. But if it's if it's really just about people coming and using your space or maybe they're like well we'd love to do dinner a couple nights or something like that, I think you're less on the hook as a host but if you are really trying to plan something where everybody's coming and you're gonna be spending a lot of time together, I do think it's worth considering exactly how

00:33:25

Speaker 2: you set yourself up and I think like dan saying you might say things like, well I've got my yoga class on these days that I'm gonna make it too. But outside of that, you know, I'm available to you or um just setting it up so that you can let folks know your own schedule while inviting the idea of spending time with them. Outside of

00:33:45

Speaker 1: that, the adult tantrums, I don't know if there is a real solution for that might be more in the category of

00:33:54

Speaker 1: Yeah,

00:33:56

Speaker 2: like, alright, someone hit their limit, they're not in their usual zone and foot stomping and tears are occurring like,

00:34:03

Speaker 1: but I will say that the end of the paragraph that mentioned, the adult tantrums also mentions that apparently they had a wonderful time and cannot wait

00:34:12

Speaker 1: to return. And

00:34:13

Speaker 2: I want to say that is

00:34:14

Speaker 1: the little um the the etiquette bloodhound in me says I've got a scent of something there that tells me that are stressed out host, did a really good job and that whatever your experience was, whatever stresses or frustrations you were feeling um that you were successful in keeping those to yourself in a way that didn't make your guests feel uncomfortable or that

00:34:37

Speaker 1: um at least left them in a situation where their memories of the trip were fond and that they were left feeling like they wanted to be hosted by you again, and that is the ultimate compliment that you can be paid as a host. And

00:34:51

Speaker 1: I think that it's, it's a good indication that it wouldn't be hard to recover from the feelings that you have about this and find a good level set with these people moving forward who sound like they're very important people in your

00:35:03

Speaker 2: life. Yeah, dan. I had one other thought about how to approach the next visit because these are people who are likely going to come again and as you said, they had a good time. So from their perspective, it's not like, oh we're not gonna do that again.

00:35:18

Speaker 2: And I think that the next time they call to set up this type of a trip that I think you, you let them know with kind of a blanket statement that you and your, your partner have changed a little bit how you host people just having so many guests. You've, you've kind of worked out some of the kinks

00:35:36

Speaker 2: and I think

00:35:37

Speaker 1: that's where spell

00:35:38

Speaker 2: out yeah, like you can spell out a few things like we are so happy to have you come stay here and we're looking forward to making time, you know, for you and enjoying our time together and you know, maybe list a few of the things that you all love to do when these people do visit. And then you can say things like some of the changes are we do ask all our guests to rent a car or to be prepared to use public transit

00:36:03

Speaker 2: and again, that's only if it's actually appropriate. But I know that for some close family members there might be some situations where it's not. But if you can say something like that or that, you know, we've, we've decided that, you know, like mornings

00:36:18

Speaker 1: are for us to kind of

00:36:19

Speaker 2: Yeah, no pets, Yes pets, no extra guests, yes, extra guests. Uh the way we tend

00:36:25

Speaker 1: to structure this type

00:36:26

Speaker 2: of a visit

00:36:26

Speaker 2: it is to um, yeah, only do it for a week and and we let folks know that we've got to take care of stuff during the day, during the morning, but we're happy to then join up for the afternoon and evening plans or something like that so that you can kind of spell out the type of visit you are willing to host but let them know that you as a couple have decided to make a change in how you host so that it can better

00:36:50

Speaker 2: fit fit your lives hosting people 2 to 2 to three weeks a month, every month is a lot of hosting. It's a ton of responsibility. You're in a position where I think it's really okay and understandable to change that up and create something that's a little bit maybe more rigid. But that works for you to be able to accommodate this type of visit more frequently

00:37:14

Speaker 2: stressed out host. We can definitely understand and sympathize why you are stressed out, but we hope that some of our suggestions in this answer will help you be able to be a blissfully happy host hosting your relatives in the future

00:37:30

Speaker 1: and when you're invited to practice the skills of a good guest leave on time and courteously too. Thanking your hosts.

00:37:44

Speaker 2: Our next question is titled Tiny House guests. Dear dan and lizzie, thank you both for hosting such an entertaining and educational podcast. I often find myself discussing topics from the show with friends and always recommend that others listen to awesome etiquette. Thank you so much for that. My question today is about hosting families who have babies or young Children.

00:38:05

Speaker 2: Many of our family members and friends are starting to grow their families and my spouse and I live close to a very popular vacation destination for families. Now that pandemic travel restrictions are lifting. We find ourselves fielding a lot of questions about when people can come visit. However, were a child free household and don't have many of the child friendly amenities usually offered by a hotel or vacation rental such as a crib or high chair.

00:38:33

Speaker 2: We do not want to purchase these items as they would not be used often enough to justify the cost or storage space. We also don't have any neighbors or friends nearby from whom we could borrow these baby basics are we as the hosts responsible for renting these items when we have house guests, Is there a way to politely recommend a rental company to guests prior to their arrival. I'm so curious to know your opinions on childproofing your home for guests. We want our guests to be comfortable

00:39:02

Speaker 2: and their Children to be safe while staying with us. But how far should we go? I can understand doing basic childproofing, such as removing fragile items from lower shelves and covering electrical outlets to protect both our tiny house guests and our personal items. However we expected to do things like install childproof locks on cabinetry. I'm not sure how to broach the subject with guests prior to their arrival. Thank you again for all the work you do to make the world a more considerate place sincerely host of tiny house guests,

00:39:32

Speaker 1: most

00:39:33

Speaker 2: tiny house guests.

00:39:34

Speaker 1: Oh my I just can't read or hear a question like this. Be read and not think about just the little entourage that I show up with places these days, just what a burden it is on people that aren't me. I'm

00:39:49

Speaker 2: gonna stay very quiet after a large family vacation on my so

00:39:56

Speaker 2: and

00:39:57

Speaker 1: it's so thoughtful for the host of tiny house guests to be approaching this question with the spirit and I I so appreciate that being someone that's often showing up with a little entourage that is not always easy to manage and having understanding hosts and hosts that are um not just willing but eager to help is so so so appreciated

00:40:21

Speaker 1: having said that I also want to absolve host of tiny house guests of a lot of the responsibility that I think they're considering or taking on here and

00:40:31

Speaker 1: I really want to affirm that it is not your responsibility to rent those types of items for people. I think it is a nice idea that you've just sort of looked around and said, would it be possible to get a

00:40:42

Speaker 2: version of this and just keep it in there

00:40:44

Speaker 1: or do I have a friend next door who's aging out of kids equipment that's in line with a regular family member who visits or something like that. And those are really thoughtful things to do and if they work, I think they're lovely gestures and

00:40:59

Speaker 1: I can think of people in my life that have done similar things. I know people that we visit regularly that keep a pack and play in their basement even though they're not pack and play families and

00:41:08

Speaker 2: because I gotta jump in here, my mom gave her pack and play and it was really funny because this happened not through me, but through a mutual friend of all the grandmother aged folks. So my mom's a grandma and one of my best friends now has a baby and so her mom is a grandmother

00:41:27

Speaker 2: and the friend that is in between my mother and my friend's mother connected. My mother and my friend's mother for a pack in place so that when Jamie came to visit with her baby at home, the grandparents had kind of some of the necessary things without having to go out and buy it because this is basically a once a year visit.

00:41:48

Speaker 1: So nice. But it's a thing.

00:41:51

Speaker 2: It's like, you know, this really does happen. The sharing of equipment between grandparents and parents and friends who don't have kids but who have people in their lives who have kids and

00:42:02

Speaker 1: so a little above and beyond what anyone would expect.

00:42:06

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's,

00:42:06

Speaker 1: it's a really nice thing to do. It's thinking about your guest comfort, ease and the type of visit and experience that you want to provide and have with people

00:42:16

Speaker 1: and it's in no way an expectation that you take that on. And I think that having some resources in mind and knowing your community well enough to know where you might turn to help someone out if they did want to rent a stroller for a week in a new city or something like that. That that is, that is also thoughtful and is a version of that that might be more doable and and more in line with the

00:42:44

Speaker 1: amount of energy that you're gonna put into hosting and my approach on the child proofing of the home is similar. I think it's a really thoughtful thing to think about and I think it's a good idea to talk with the parents ahead of time about potential hazards. We do have steep stairs, we have

00:43:01

Speaker 1: throw rugs or that are tripping hazard, whatever those things

00:43:07

Speaker 2: collection. Like

00:43:12

Speaker 1: I'm taking a self defensive posture,

00:43:16

Speaker 2: things

00:43:17

Speaker 1: that I really care about that could be broken. That would be hard to forgive and that would maybe be very tempting to a small child or even just within their grasp. Um

00:43:28

Speaker 1: I might take the proactive step if possible of trying to put those things away and if that wasn't possible, I would definitely be sure to identify them clearly and not just to the child but to the parent. I really think the parents, the person you want to be having that dialogue with as far as the safety of the child, the parents are really going to be focused on that and you want to be there to be the assist for them as much as possible. But

00:43:51

Speaker 1: my guess is that most people that bring tiny house guests with them are used to keeping their tiny house guests away from the outlets in the hotel rooms or the other houses that they stay at. Um and that while cabinet bumpers are re

00:44:06

Speaker 1: really really nice to have in the kitchen that you're spending all of your time on that with a few extra eyes, you can, you can keep little kids out of cabinets in a kitchen that doesn't have those things.

00:44:16

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a really reasonable expectation and in terms of communication, you can just let your house guests know as you're setting up a visit. You know, I'll definitely, you know, put things away and I've got covers for outlets, but like dan said, we do have some steep stairs and I don't have a baby gate.

00:44:34

Speaker 2: I know there's a lot of stuff that's really convenient, but unfortunately I don't have things like a pack and play or a stroller that you could borrow, but I know of a good rental company in town. I think that is more than enough of a helpful hosting attitude to have about it and correct me if I'm wrong dan. But I also feel like a lot of parents know that they need to bring all the things to take care of their kid with them, especially when they're visiting folks who don't have kids.

00:45:03

Speaker 1: Absolutely,

00:45:04

Speaker 2: yeah, host of tiny house guests. A great question, thank you so much for asking it. Clearly you are a thoughtful and gracious host already and we hope that our answer helps you continue to be as you host all of your tiny house guests.

00:45:20

Speaker 1: Ah they're sweet Children,

00:45:24

Speaker 1: always joking.

00:45:27

Speaker 1: Our next question is about a muddled move in.

00:45:30

Speaker 1: Dear lizzie and dan first thanks for the thoughtful and helpful podcast. I have a quick question regarding a roommate switch. I currently live in a small den that doesn't really have a door in an apartment that has two bedrooms. I remember those days,

00:45:47

Speaker 2: both

00:45:48

Speaker 1: of those rooms have been full, but now that one of our roommates is moving out, I get a bigger room. I also remember those

00:45:55

Speaker 2: days

00:45:57

Speaker 1: as I prepare to move in there. I need to buy things to fill the room as I'm not sure what came with the room and what belongs to my roommate. I'd like to ask him in order to know what to order. But as he is also my friend, I don't want him to feel like I'm pushing him out or waiting for him to leave. What's a good way to approach this or should I just wait until he leaves to see what I'm working with? Thanks Courtney.

00:46:20

Speaker 2: Courtney, thank you for the question. I feel like dan. I feel like we can make quick work of this one.

00:46:27

Speaker 2: I think it's totally fine to ask like I don't, I can't see anything wrong with asking or that would, I mean if you asked in a jerk ish way sure. It might make someone feel like

00:46:37

Speaker 1: they're going out, but I don't,

00:46:38

Speaker 2: Courtney doesn't sound that way to me. Just by the way, she's written her email here And so I feel like just simply asking, hey, I know I know you're gonna be moving out at the end of the month or the end of october and I was just wondering, did anything come with the room or is it all going with you when you leave? I know I've

00:46:55

Speaker 2: got some furniture to purchase. I feel like that would work. Yes. No, maybe. So

00:47:00

Speaker 1: this decision is already made. You can ask whatever you need to know. No, I think, I think you're in good shape with that and, and a good sample script there, lizzie post.

00:47:09

Speaker 2: Yeah. And I don't think it'll sound like rushing. I think it'll sound like you're just prepping. You're just trying to get your head around what you've got to do for once the move comes and obviously, you know, participate in anything that is about saying goodbye to the roommate

00:47:23

Speaker 2: and letting him know that you're gonna miss him. If, if you are

00:47:27

Speaker 1: the only thing I could add to this would be, you know, if you are going to miss him, tell him it's always a nice thing when, when roommate situations are changing people are moving out if you're

00:47:39

Speaker 1: um yeah, I think it's a nice thing to part well and maybe use these thoughts in your mind as a reminder to be explicit about that and to let someone know you've appreciated your time together and you wish them well

00:47:51

Speaker 2: dan, this question has me looking around my house and noticing things like this little table that was in my, my first off campus apartment with my friend Sophie

00:48:02

Speaker 2: and it was her table and I loved it and she was getting rid of a ton of stuff when she moved out and so she gave me the table and I still got it. Yeah, I think about when Caroline moved, um, she graduated from UVM and moved out

00:48:17

Speaker 2: and the chairs from her kitchen are still the chairs that I use in my kitchen and just like, it's just things like that where you're like, you know, you collect over time and sometimes some of my things my roommates have left behind or given me on purpose to leave behind, you know, for me things that I really kept over time and enjoy and still use, you never know Courtney

00:48:39

Speaker 2: That side table might end up being your side table for the next 30 years.

00:48:44

Speaker 1: So that would be a little weight on the side of the scale that says, yeah, go ahead and

00:48:48

Speaker 2: ask.

00:48:50

Speaker 2: Sorry. Yeah. Is there another side to the scale?

00:48:55

Speaker 1: Well, you just might like me not say anything. You

00:48:58

Speaker 2: just not want. Just kind of see what a year dan. Okay, so you've got the two approaches here. Courtney, I would totally feel fine asking and dan validates that idea. But on a personal level he just wait and see what was left over and purchase stuff after that. But then again, this is dan who literally practice living as minimally as possible. And I mean like dude refused a bike, his parents offered to buy for him. Like

00:49:23

Speaker 2: I had a

00:49:24

Speaker 1: perfectly good bike.

00:49:28

Speaker 2: He didn't want the nicer bike they were offering, but no, it's uh, it's, you know, which, whichever direction you run with it. I think, I think it'll be good, but you would be perfectly fine etiquette stance to, to actually go ahead and ask about some of the items that might stay or leave or I would really keep it broad and say, is there anything you're leaving behind rather than ask, could you please leave that bed frame behind

00:49:53

Speaker 1: or something like

00:49:53

Speaker 2: that?

00:49:54

Speaker 2: I like that

00:49:55

Speaker 1: because what are you planning to leave anything? Not what was here when you got here? As in, I'm expecting that to still be here when you go,

00:50:04

Speaker 1: Courtney, congratulations on the bigger room and good luck with the apartment moving forward.

00:50:12

Speaker 2: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com.

00:50:18

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00:50:19

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00:50:24

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00:50:25

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00:50:30

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00:50:31

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00:50:33

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00:50:34

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00:50:36

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00:50:37

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00:50:38

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00:50:45

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00:50:54

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00:51:07

Speaker 2: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover and today we have feedback from anonymous about the questions about pointing out someone's acne, lizzie and

00:51:19

Speaker 1: dan are actually probably more appropriately in this case pooja and dan.

00:51:24

Speaker 2: Ah pu question, Okay, gotcha.

00:51:26

Speaker 1: I just listened to episode 4 12 where P. J. Was a co host and wanted to give some feedback on the question about acne and blackheads.

00:51:34

Speaker 1: I think this question deserves a little more consideration. A person with acne or blackheads is aware of the problem. They see themselves in the mirror every day and people comment or stare at the blemish frequently. I'm sure this friend attended middle school, they know about acne. There is a 0% chance that this listeners friend is unaware of the situation.

00:51:55

Speaker 1: This is different from someone with a spinach in their teeth or an unzipped fly both of which are entirely possible to be unaware of. These also have an easy quickly implemented solution

00:52:07

Speaker 1: as a person that has struggled with adult acne and persistent blackheads. I have tried every remedy, creams, doctors, aestheticians, lasers, hormones, steroids, prescriptions, diet changes etcetera. A friend pulling me aside to let me know I had this problem and inviting me to go to an aesthetician would not be helpful. It would be very hurtful, can we agree there are things about people's appearances. We should just never comment on

00:52:33

Speaker 1: a few examples, asking a woman if she's pregnant because she's gained some weight in her belly or asking about someone's disfiguring scars or suggesting a new diet to your fat friend. Just don't do it. It never ends well and could do some real harm. I strongly urge your listener to keep his or her disgust to themselves and know the person is struggling with this and probably doing all they can signed. I know you don't need to tell me,

00:53:01

Speaker 1: I want to say that I so appreciate this feedback. I think it's a really important point to make and I'm glad that someone wrote in to share this perspective.

00:53:12

Speaker 1: I wanted to share that when and I were recording this show. The question about blackheads and talking to a friend about pimples was one that ran long as we were recording it. And when we finished it, I found myself saying to, you know, there was a whole thing there that we didn't even talk about, which is that it might not be appropriate at all to bring this out. And that there are a number of situations in which

00:53:36

Speaker 1: it just wouldn't be appropriate. And I could think of a few different reasons why the best course of action would be to not say anything. And we really answered the question in the spirit of trying to help someone who was wanting to do it and to do it well, and I was aware that there was a gap and almost considered asking if she wanted to get back on the mic to record and round out our answer a little more, but I also said to myself, and

00:54:03

Speaker 1: I feel a little guilty doing it, that we might get some feedback on this question that our listeners are so sensitive and so aware, and the thing that I felt was missing from our answer is probably something some other people are going to

00:54:16

Speaker 2: Yeah,

00:54:17

Speaker 1: and when I saw this piece of feedback, I said to myself, I know I can count on all of you, our audience here at awesome etiquette is um is so dependable, you are a good group of people, so I know you don't need to tell me,

00:54:32

Speaker 1: I know you don't need to tell me and I'm so glad that you did, because it's something that I really wanted to talk about, thank you so much for this feedback. You

00:54:40

Speaker 2: know, it was it was really great feedback and we had about five pieces that were all very similar to it, so to those of you who are out there and also had similar thoughts, thank you as well for your feedback, We chose this one in the end, but I really really just appreciate the perspective of being willing to draw a line and say that there are some things you just don't comment on,

00:55:02

Speaker 2: and I think that's that's really true. And I also believe that there are relationships where these things can be addressed at times and those relationships you usually know when you're in one and you can address and talk with someone like this.

00:55:17

Speaker 2: And I think that it's important to recognize that if you're not 100% confident that this is something that you already have permission to talk to someone about, then you just don't go there, you wait for them to ask you questions if they have any. I know you don't need to tell me. Thank you so much for your feedback. We really, really appreciated this perspective and we're happy to get

00:55:41

Speaker 1: it onto the show

00:55:42

Speaker 2: and out to the audience

00:55:44

Speaker 1: and thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please do keep them coming. You can send your next piece of feedback update or question to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463.

00:56:16

Speaker 1: It's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to dive through history and read about Emily's wedding from the biography Emily Post, Daughter of the Gilded Age, Mistress of american manners by Laura Claridge. This reading can be found on page 95 96

00:56:36

Speaker 2: dan. I thought this would be a good one because of course it is summer and summer is wedding season across the United States, even though people get married all throughout the year.

00:56:44

Speaker 2: Um but it might be kind of cool to, to visit Emily's wedding and here a little bit about what it was like. It was not without drama, y'all setting this wedding up. There was, there was some interesting stuff that happened.

00:56:57

Speaker 1: Drama.

00:56:58

Speaker 2: I know right, but this is about the actual day. Here we go. On june 1st, 18 92 Emily Bruce Price married Edwin Main Post,

00:57:09

Speaker 2: an Episcopalian church in tuxedo ST mary's had been finished in 18 88 but Emily got married at home. The wedding was held on the edge of tuxedo lake at the family's rock lawn. Residents, Bruce's favorite of the four price family cottages. That's in quotes he had

00:57:28

Speaker 1: built,

00:57:30

Speaker 1: He

00:57:30

Speaker 2: gave his next favorite to Emily and Edwin as a wedding gift.

00:57:35

Speaker 1: I love

00:57:35

Speaker 2: this name. Bishop whipple of Minnesota officiated a concession to mrs Post. He was at least a member of her family. His son having married mrs Post's sister. By this point, Bruce Price must have been mollified by new family connections as well. The new york Times noted that George Post was among the highly select guests.

00:57:59

Speaker 2: Emily had designed her wedding dress herself. She'd sent her sketches to worth in paris who'd sewn everything on site, including the four bridesmaids gowns. She kept her drawings for years in one of the calf bound ledgers. She used to enter personal accounts explaining whenever asked that she didn't keep a diary. She wasn't the introspective sort. She failed to add that. She nonetheless recorded her days in fastidious detail.

00:58:29

Speaker 2: The bride had probably argued for a practical local seamstress, but josephine preferred the security of fine french fashion. Sending away to paris turned out to be a mistake. However, for all the beauty it guaranteed promised the garments weeks earlier, Emily and josephine received the package only two days prior to the big date,

00:58:54

Speaker 2: 68 degrees at eight a.m. Near 90 degrees by the afternoon. The weather for the wedding guaranteed a soggy affair that first day of june, in spite of the lack of rain. Tuxedo park was hardly cooler than Manhattan. The new york times urged city workers and those within 100 miles to use umbrellas for the unremitting sun,

00:59:18

Speaker 2: even if Emily had been willing to switch to the gauze undergarments. The newspaper recommended for women that day, and she wasn't the relief under her layers of silk and satin would have been minimal layers of material swath the 19 year old bride. The white Mussolini de sua and real old lace surely ruined by her perspiration.

00:59:43

Speaker 2: Her high necked corsage was trimmed with orange blossoms and a veil of pondel Akane, pale green mull a fine muslin draped the bridesmaids dance length silk dresses, straw colored corsages with delicate hints of pink cast the entire scene as a Watteau down to the triple plumed leghorn hats.

01:00:09

Speaker 2: Edwin's little brother Henry was the page with his older brother, a Visi post cousin regis post and longtime friend Lyman Colt as attendance when regis married his cousin Caroline Post. A few years later, he would placate Edwin's mother, ensuring that dr Charles Parkhurst sanctified at least one post reunion.

01:00:33

Speaker 2: That was some of the drama.

01:00:35

Speaker 2: Even more than with most weddings, it had been tense up to the last minute. The list of upcoming country nuptials that the Times published a week before. Emily's listed her bridesmaids as four Baltimore bells, Friends and relatives from Emily's past. But the wedding announcement a week later indicated a few quick and pointed substitution,

01:00:58

Speaker 2: Bruce and josephine's Baltimore nieces, Sadie Price and josephine Georgie Barrow were still half of the equation, but two of Edwin's sisters, Beatrice and the dour Nathalie Post now served as peace offerings to Edwin's mother substituting for the two friends Emily had originally chosen.

01:01:20

Speaker 2: We can only imagine the bride's irritation at the scene perspiring profusely under the heavy fabric, irritated at her mother's belief in superstition, the marriage could have taken place in early May a predictably cool time decades later, recalling her unnecessary suffering vividly. She would advise modern brides that the superstition that friday and the month of May are unlucky is too stupid to discuss.

01:01:48

Speaker 2: But by june 5th 18 92 a few days after the Price. Post nuptials in the country, no evidence remained of the rough patches. The new york times discounted on the three most important weddings in the country that had occurred that weekend From Hempstead Long Island to tuxedo

01:02:08

Speaker 2: park socialites vied for first place. Some of the papers used nomenclature from Edith Wharton speaking reverently of the country seat of the bride's parents. Quote Miss Bruce Price was the prettiest bride of the day, and quote, the new york times, boldly pronounced. There was at least one wedding guest who would be convinced the rest of his life that no finer bride existed anywhere

01:02:36

Speaker 2: if, as Emily later suggested Bruce Price looked to others as if he had buried, not married off his daughter. His sadness at losing his only child was matched by his pride in her exceptional character and her physical beauty.

01:02:53

Speaker 1: Oh my goodness! So lizzie! I I read this book a while ago and I remember this section. I think that laura invested in

01:03:01

Speaker 1: describing Emily's wedding because it was an important moment in her life. And I think people associate Emily with weddings and I remember struggling with the vocabulary for this section as I was reading it. And I

01:03:15

Speaker 2: did too. I

01:03:17

Speaker 1: thought you did an admirable job with it and I was even inspired. I had to google search Watteau, I was like. What is, What is that? In reference to the french

01:03:24

Speaker 2: capital, john

01:03:26

Speaker 1: Anton watto was a french painter. I'm going to read the goo

01:03:28

Speaker 1: here for just a second and draftsman whose brief career spurred the revival of interest in color and movement. Watteau is credited with inventing the genre of vets, gallant scenes of bucolic and idyllic charm suffused with a theatrical air. It's a perfect description of the wedding as a motto

01:03:49

Speaker 2: with

01:03:50

Speaker 1: a hint of color and a festive feeling.

01:03:54

Speaker 2: Good

01:03:55

Speaker 1: work, Laura Claridge, good work. Emily

01:03:56

Speaker 2: Post.

01:03:58

Speaker 2: No, it's, I I really liked this section. Some of the drama they were referring to is I believe that Edwin's mother really wanted a certain pastor either to be in attendance or to marry, marry her Children off. And I believe Emily's father like put his foot down hard, did not like felt that felt this guy was peddling a message that shouldn't be peddled and and was like, no. And it became a real comte

01:04:26

Speaker 2: contentious moment between the in laws.

01:04:29

Speaker 1: It's

01:04:30

Speaker 2: just so darn classic, you know what I mean? But I also, oh my God! Well, and like of course, and then we always say to people, the weather is the one thing you can't control and while you might do your best to select a time or a season that really will, will do the best it can

01:04:54

Speaker 2: for you or be the best best time or season. Even then you could end up with a rainy day, a hot and muggy day and Emily ended up with a hot and muggy day yards of silk. That dress that they needed to do so many little alterations to the dress is to make them fit and back in that day. You really did like, you know, a lot of things were tailored to you and you'd have a seamstress working on them and I just can't imagine what it was like for josephine and Emily to be waiting,

01:05:22

Speaker 2: you know, every day to see the package arrive or

01:05:25

Speaker 1: probably a trunk,

01:05:27

Speaker 2: a trunk of these dresses arrive. And it just doesn't, it keeps not showing up and it's like just the panic of it. And this isn't like you email the company or you call the company like, I mean maybe the phone, but I don't even think at that point you were doing transatlantic phone calls. So just the idea of of how on earth you would handle it if those dresses hadn't have showed up.

01:05:50

Speaker 2: I am beside myself imagining and

01:05:54

Speaker 1: with all that going on in the end, the affair was lovely and was well reviewed by the new york times. The most important thing of all I

01:06:02

Speaker 2: know is really just amazing. Amazing. But I hope that's a little bit of inspiration. A little commiseration for for some of the couples out there in the midst of getting married this

01:06:13

Speaker 1: summer as always, thank you for finding us a reading from laura Claridge and one of my favorites.

01:06:30

Speaker 2: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms. Today we have a salute from Caitlin.

01:06:41

Speaker 1: Dear, awesome etiquette. I'm writing today with an etiquette salute for a new colleague of mine who I'll call V. R. Company works mostly remotely these days, which can make it hard to connect with colleagues, especially those who are new. There are so few opportunities to get to know each other or talk about anything except work. I really admired how V in her first two weeks at her new job took the initiative to reach out to me and the rest of our team,

01:07:07

Speaker 1: inviting us all to short one on one zoom meetings so she could say hello, introduce herself and get to know us all a little bit. It reminded me of your guidance on how you should always immediately introduce yourself to people at a party and make an effort to immediately introduce others to make the social interaction comfortable, quickly that V took the time to seek out all her new colleagues one at a time showed such poise and thoughtfulness and I salute her for it.

01:07:33

Speaker 2: Oh Caitlin, that's a fabulous salute. And also

01:07:37

Speaker 2: I love it because it's like, it's wonderful when not the new person, but people who have been there are are doing the outreach and making a newcomer feel confident and comfortable. But I also love that V took the initiative to do it on her own and went for it and

01:07:54

Speaker 2: that that ended up feeling really excellent to some of the we'll call, we'll call Caitlin an old timer in this case, some of the old timers at work and and I just I love that dynamic, I really do. It's very empowering. I feel like

01:08:08

Speaker 1: it's a

01:08:09

Speaker 1: salute and also just a lovely example of best practices for remote work, of not letting the relationship side of work fall by the wayside, which can be so easy to do with focus on efficiency and productivity. And it's important that we invest in relationships and get to know the people that we work with. That doesn't mean they all have to be your friends, but that you make some time to to know each other can make work a lot easier. And

01:08:38

Speaker 1: um it's just a great example of that and I'm glad to hear how well it worked Caitlin, thank you so much for this salute

01:08:45

Speaker 2: and thank you for listening

01:08:47

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01:09:49

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