Episode 443 - Cocktail Salt Lick

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Old Timey Voice One
Maybe it's just that. You don't know how to use social courtesy,

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Old Timey Voice One
Awww thtat’s old fashioned.

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Old Timey Voice One
Watch as...

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Lizzie Post
Lizzie Post.

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Old Timey Voice One
And...

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Daniel Post Senning
Dan Post Senning.

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Old Timey Voice One
act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect. Thinking of the other person. Real friendliness.

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Lizzie Post
Hello and welcome to Awesome Etiquette.

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Daniel Post Senning
Where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration. Respect, and honesty.

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Lizzie Post
On today's show, we take your questions on hiring a makeup artist at a gay wedding, getting ready to go through security at the airport, getting a bonus you don't want and enjoying what's on the rim of a cocktail.

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Daniel Post Senning
For awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question is about having dinner with your partner's mother for the first time and who pays?

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Lizzie Post
Plus, your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript where we bring you the first half of our interview with Emily Dao, author of Demystifying Disability What to Know What to Say and How to Be an Ally.

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Daniel Post Senning
All that's coming up.

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Lizzie Post
The awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm Lizzie Post.

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Daniel Post Senning
And I'm Dan Post setting. And today is kind of a big day at the Emily Post Institute.

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Lizzie Post
It is. It will have already happened by the time this podcast airs, but we. Will. Are launching our very brand new product, our digital downloads, our digital planners. Dan, this is about four weeks in the making at this point and I am very, very excited for today. This is like a grab the champagne bottle kind of day.

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Daniel Post Senning
Well, let me tell you. You grab the champagne bottle. I'm going to grab the mic because it's my turn to toot your horn just a little bit. This is so awesome and awesome. Etiquette is definitely the place to share the enthusiasm that Lizzie Post and I both have for what we're talking about, which is the launch of digital products from Emily Post. And it sounds so banal or sort of simple when I say it, but it's. It's. So much cooler than anyone is thinking when I say digital products or digital downloads. Lizzie Post has taken everything that she learned over two years, writing the centennial edition of Emily Post Etiquette, both the eye for content, the love of language, but also the the commitment to design and thinking about how we present all of what we talk about it. Emily Post in ways that people can understand it, can hear it and can see it. And what I see happening with these digital downloads is essentially little mini books that you, Lizzie Post, are producing for all of us. And they take Emily post content and put it on your phone, on your tablet, on your computer. They link things like menu planners and gifts tracking registry list. Your list ledgers. Things that are things that we recommend people do with the advice that we give. And we've paired the ability to actually do those things with the advice and isolated that ability around certain concepts, like hosting a party, hosting a particular kind of party, writing a thank you note, preparing for an interview, and the first packet that you've worked on all centered around wedding parties. And it's a great little three planner set of information and planning tools for your engagement party, your wedding shower, or your bridal luncheon. And Lizzie, they came out beautiful. I think that your design work on them was as good as your content work on them, and I know why you're so excited to release them. I know why you're feeling so good today, and I hope that that champagne cork is pointed somewhere else when it finally pops and you deserve it.

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Lizzie Post
Well, I appreciate that. I am really excited about these. In some ways, they were born sort of out of two things. And one is that we've always known we wanted to do this and we kind of tried to apply this to the book with the reference sections, with the resource guides that are at the end of each chapter. And we loved those guides so much and we wanted them to be more useful. We wanted them to be a checklist that was right there on your phone that you could fill. It out. And fill out that the self-assessment is something that, you know, when you're thinking about, about how you want to present yourself as a person in the world, that that's something you could really, you know, run yourself through that prep list for a party that you are hosting at your home is something useful and not just something where you're going to use, you know, 500 sheets of paper over a lifetime to prepare for something like that. And we really wanted it to be the digital useful version of all the advice that we give.

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Speaker 5
Ooh, yeah. How about sample. Invitation language specific to the kind of party or. Events that we throw

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Lizzie Post
? Exactly. So those types of things are in here, and it's been stuff we've wanted for a really long time and actually a conversation with one of our former coworkers that Emily Post, Elizabeth Howell really about marketing and about our branding and about the content that we have to work with was so inspirational that a 5:00 hour long Friday conversation turned into four weeks of nonstop work that's gotten us to a storefront.

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Lizzie Post
We have an Emily Post storefront now that you can visit. And it really was sort of the the Grease for the wheel, maybe.

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Daniel Post Senning
The way to put it.

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Lizzie Post
So really want to thank Elizabeth Howell for that inspiration. She's also an amazing, amazingly talented marketing and PR professional. For any of you who are interested in finding out more, please find her on good old Instagram and social media. But it's really been a dream come true. I can't help it. I lie awake at night even after what is now like a doubled work day and I'm on the the website. Dan and I'm. Like looking at our download.

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Daniel Post Senning
You don’t need to convince me because I get the emails and the text messages because you're unable to fall asleep at night when you're thinking about this day.

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Lizzie Post
It's so exciting. Oh yeah, I know you get the 2 a.m. emails and the detective out. Oh, look at work. Look. A sale went through. We can really do this like. It's like that. I mean, sometimes we use the show to kind of pull back the curtain. And, I mean, two days ago, we thought we were going to launch this thing. And sure enough, our sales system that we had in place really wasn't functioning the way we wanted it to. So we up and. Moved. To a different platform, found another sales system and boom, we've got what we want. But we have to go through those same things. Here at Emily Post, we have those same hang ups, hiccups, excitement moments, starter moments, fits and starts within all the starter moments. And it's it is very exciting to get something that so many people feel excited about. I've actually tested out Dan by sending to a couple of our podcast listeners.

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Daniel Post Senning
Nice.

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Lizzie Post
These as text message PDFs so that they could interact with them and check them out. And our friend Wendy, the very first thing she said was.

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Lizzie Post
Did you guys like know that. I'm a bridesmaid this year and like I need to host a. Wedding shower? It's like, No, we didn't, but I'm glad this is what you want. So it's been really, really cool to see people enjoying this, liking the idea of it. And we are just so thrilled to bring you our digital download shop.

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Daniel Post Senning
And there's more coming.

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Lizzie Post
So much more coming oh my gosh.

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Daniel Post Senning
I get to see the I get to see the project planning that's going on and.

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Lizzie Post
Tell them what's coming. Up.

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Daniel Post Senning
We started with weddings and I think the timing couldn't be better. As we know, what Emily posts is where we start to get a lot of wedding questions. People are thinking about planning and getting ready for summer weddings, and I think starting off with major wedding parties was an obvious choice, but it very quickly showed us how how good these are for planning parties and events. And all of a sudden the applications for that started to spiral opening. We have dinner party planning and business lunch planning. There are all kinds of event planning applications here that are that are queued up and we will be releasing over the next several months. But we've got products coming in the kids and parents category, which is really where the sort of original idea for this began. We knew we wanted packets for parents, things that people could just open and do with their kids around the kitchen table and have those be focused enough that if you had kids who were at different ages, at different stages of social development, the materials and the information would be right for them. And and that's hard to do with a general book about children's etiquette. But with these more targeted digital content packages, these digital downloads, we can really do that. And it's just awesome. It's awesome .

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Lizzie Post
Dan the one that I'm working on right now is one for job interviews, and that's one that we want to make really accessible to everybody. We've also got ideas for things like houseguest. A nice checklist for you to be able to kind of run through as you prepare for a houseguest and even setting it upright. We have a wonderful I'm almost through making this one.

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Lizzie Post
This one. I think almost every awesome had a good audience member my one and that's. Our thank you notes smart list which this is just a thank you note ledger that you can use throughout the year to keep track of the favors, gifts, things you might want to thank someone for when you've sent them.

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Daniel Post Senning
Keep it on your phone.

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Lizzie Post
Keep it on your phone running. Tally it's I'll love this thing so much, I can't wait to start using it, but we are really hoping.

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Daniel Post Senning
Ooh, Lizzie Post. I just had an idea when you said this is going to be just right for the awesome etiquette audience.

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Speaker 5
Oh, what's that?

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Daniel Post Senning
Do you have one yet for keeping track of who ordered which toppings for the pizza?

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Lizzie Post
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! No, we haven't, because.

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Daniel Post Senning
That could settle a lot of this news. Right, If.

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Speaker 5
Talking over each other about pizza topics and reaction to the idea.

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Lizzie Post
Brilliant. Oh, we should come up with one of those as a freebie to the whole. Awesome.

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Daniel Post Senning
This is the thing. I want everyone to know that I've been listening to you for long enough. Now that I know you're picturing how this is going to be designed, what the layout is, there would be a circular shape. It would look a little like a pizza and you would fill in percentages and people's names and it
would look really good.

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Lizzie Post
(Laughs) wer’e gonna end up gettin you making these these it's
Been a lot of fun coming up with these if you have ideas audience about things that you would like once you see these digital planners and if they inspire you for a subject, let us know. We'd love to think about how you view this as useful in your life and where we might be able to fill some gaps. But for now we are very excited to be launching the wedding parties packs. There are three of them. Check out the link in our show description. Check out the link on our home page. Check out the link in our substack. If you haven't. Already.

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Daniel Post Senning
Or the Instagram, at least look at it.

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Lizzie Post
Exactly, exactly, exactly. Follow our social. Media.

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Lizzie Post
You can definitely get in on the 20% discount code that we are currently offering over there. And so please, please, please check out these planners, give them a try and get excited about all that the Emily Post Shop is going to have to offer within the coming year.

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Daniel Post Senning
Lizzie Post There's something else that's coming. It's the rest of this show.

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Lizzie Post
It's like our show is about questions, right?

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Daniel Post Senning
And we have some great questions this week, so we get to it.

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Lizzie Post
Let's do it.

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Daniel Post Senning
Let's do it. Awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. Leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on Twitter. We are at Emily Post instant on Instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook.

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Daniel Post Senning
We are the Emily Post Institute. Just remember to use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show. Lizzie Post. I'll take the read on this first question because I'm looking for.

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Speaker 5
You to.

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Daniel Post Senning
Provide some answers.

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Speaker 5
Totally.

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Daniel Post Senning
Question number one is titled Make Up Manners. Dear Lizzie and Dan, I have a question regarding hair and makeup artists for a wedding. My fiance and I are planning our wedding and we are both men, so we haven't planned on bringing someone in for hair and makeup since we won't be needing it for ourselves. However, we will be having a few of our female friends in our respective wedding parties and the topic has been brought up casually by one of the grooms maids.

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Daniel Post Senning
We don't have an opinion on how hair or makeup should be done, but we want to be respectful. If this is something they would be interested in. Our question is who is responsible for coordinating hair and makeup when there are two grooms? Is this something we should be taking care of as part of our wedding planning? Or would this be appropriate to delegate to one of our grooms maids to look into and in this situation, who would be responsible for paying if someone were to be brought in for these services?

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Daniel Post Senning
Thank you for all the great advice you give befuddled grooms.

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Lizzie Post
Befuddled grooms. Thank you so much for this question. Also, thank you for grooms maids. I had not heard that one yet. We we call them honor attendants. When you have someone of a different gender on on your side sort of standing up with you at the wedding. But I like grooms maids quite a bit. I just read in our wonderful book, Emily Post Wedding Etiquette sixth edition, the answer to this very question.

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Lizzie Post
And I thought it was so well done. And I'm not going to just read it straight out of the book for you.

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Speaker 5
But I do.

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Lizzie Post
Appreciate the fact that Bridget popped this one.

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Speaker 5
In. And I was like, Oh, good timing. You know, I've just seen a Q&A about this.

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Lizzie Post
And what I loved is that the advice that was written a number of years ago is still very, very true today. And that is that typically it's up to attendants to take care of their own appearance for the day, aside from the outfit that they're going to be wearing, which has been suggested by the couple, they're really free to do what they want with their hair and makeup.

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Lizzie Post
If the couple would really like particular looks up do's for the women, things like that, or maybe it's hair down or something like that, and they decide to engage a makeup artist or a hairstylist. You are then as the couple on the hook because you're making a request, you're making this a part of being in this experience. We highly suggest that you cover it.

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Lizzie Post
Lots of people can do their own look for the day and it is going to be lovely. It's going to be the version of them that they feel the most confident in usually. So we do highly suggest that people be given the option to present themselves in a manner that they feel confident and comfortable. And for some people that might actually mean hiring their own person.

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Lizzie Post
If you haven't done it, you know, like not all of us are comfortable doing our own makeup or hair. And so there is always the option as an individual for if hair and makeup hasn't been provided for you to do that. But overall, you're usually trying to have folks kind of not look the same, but have the same sort of.

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Speaker 5
Level of.

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Lizzie Post
Look, I would say, and some people care, you know, if one person looks heavily made up and done up and another person has just very simple, you know, air dried hair and free of makeup, other couples aren't going to care about that. So it really comes down to the two of you how you want your wedding party to look.

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Lizzie Post
And if you are willing to then provide the resources for that to happen.

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Daniel Post Senning
I'm going to take a long answer and reduce it down.

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Speaker 5
Short.

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Daniel Post Senning
So I can keep track of it myself and is what I'm basically hearing. It's not an expectation like this isn't something that usually is something that a bridal party or honor attendants would think of as being taken care of by the wedding couple.

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Lizzie Post
Well, now you're getting into tricky territory because there's a lot of bridal industry. And I would say, you know, entertainment industry, ideas, trends, expectations, examples use the word you want, you know, of make hair and makeup being taken care of for the bridesmaids or for the attendants. And it's worth recognizing that just because we see it in movies and television or just because we see it on influencer Instagrams doesn't necessarily mean it's what happens all the time in real life.

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Lizzie Post
I think we really have to be aware of that. It's the same, same kind of blow up that I feel like bachelorette parties have gotten, where it's like I've had people write into us saying that it is a clear assumption that the expectation is a weekend getaway where you spend a lot of money and that just isn't the case.

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Lizzie Post
That is not what what bachelorette or bachelor parties need to be. And it's the same with hair and makeup. There's a lot of expectation of up dos expectation of heavily done makeup and contouring, makeup and all kinds of things. And it just is not, from an etiquette perspective, a must do.

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Daniel Post Senning
I like that etiquette perspective, clarification. Absolutely. And I also like the idea that it's an open that it's an option, that while it's not something that you expect, that it's certainly something a couple could decide to do for their attendance, maybe particularly if it's something that they're hearing from the attendants about, although maybe I'm guessing budgets the ultimate choice here or one of the organic designers.

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Speaker 5
You got it. You got it.

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Lizzie Post
And I also really want to put out there that just because it's a nice thing to take care of this for your bridal party doesn't mean it's in your budget and doesn't mean that you are any less polite of a person. If you don't do this for your bridal party. I think where it would be rude is if you had very high and specific expectations of hair and makeup for attendance and then told them they had to do it to participate and that you weren't going to pay for it, That is where we would start to say that doesn't sit right from an etiquette perspective.

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Lizzie Post
So I think as long as you're making it an option, I think as long as your people are often looking for a little direction and the direction might even be please like do your hair and makeup as you feel confident, you know, and that and that means that if they feel confident hiring someone great, if they feel confident doing it on their own, great.

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Lizzie Post
If they feel confident not doing it, but just kind of having that natural as is, look, then that is what might show up. And I personally think it's great. I know not everybody always does and not everybody is natural.

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Speaker 5
Look has the same put.

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Lizzie Post
Togetherness as other peoples and so you get into all kinds of nooks and crannies that could be dangerous territory here. But I do feel like those are the options that you have. And being clear and consistent is probably one of the best things that you can do. And as grooms, it matters not whether you are engaging the services or not.

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Lizzie Post
You can.

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Speaker 5
You know, you decide what you need and what you would like for the day.

00;19;53;05 - 00;20;00;15
Daniel Post Senning
Just listening to you talk, I'm kind of curious what contouring makeup well Applied might do for me as I age.

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Lizzie Post
Dan Let's Ken. Audience Can you send him, please? Ticktock and YouTube videos and Instagram links to contouring makeup. Get the Kardashians on it. Can we get the Kardashians on this, please? Befuddled grooms. Thank you so much for this question. We bet there are many grooms who are wondering about this. And we really thank you for writing in with it.

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Lizzie Post
We hope our answer helps and that you have a fabulous wedding.

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Old Timey Voice One
Yes, science has entered every field of beauty today, no matter what the problem or what type of face we have, advice is available to us so that in a highly competitive world where appearance counts for so much, each of us can always look as best.

00;20;47;13 - 00;21;10;18
Lizzie Post
Our next question is titled Plane Passenger Problem. Hi, Lizzie and Daniel. I fly once every one or two months and I realized that I get annoyed in my mind by the fact that passengers wait in line for the security check and only when they are in front of the security counter do they start removing belts, taking off their coats and taking out their electronics.

00;21;11;02 - 00;21;32;15
Lizzie Post
I find this attitude, delaying the whole process, which is the correct approach to this. Is it better to have a little dance while waiting in line? There's no grace in removing your jacket with one hand while carrying a bag or wait till reaching the security counter. I would love to hear your feedback. Regards Curious Passenger Dan, you travel a lot.

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Lizzie Post
You got.

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Speaker 5
Thoughts?

00;21;34;03 - 00;21;57;24
Daniel Post Senning
I do have thoughts and I just want to know how long we've got. Do we have time? Lizzie? Because I've got a lot of thoughts here where to begin? First of all, Burlington Airport, I love you so much. You are a great little airport. It is one of the easiest places I find in the country to get into and out of and get a flight and not be burdened by the process of navigating an airport.

00;21;58;09 - 00;22;18;20
Daniel Post Senning
They have recently gone through a change at the Burlington Airport where they've added a new security screening, and the new machines allow you to not have to remove your electronics from your bag to not have to take out all of the little fluid items in a clear plastic baggie. It is awesome. Thank you, Burlington.

00;22;19;04 - 00;22;23;09
Speaker 5
I am so grateful to you for flying. Used to be here.

00;22;24;04 - 00;22;47;06
Daniel Post Senning
And the machines look like spaceships have landed. They've got these giant colored lights that wrap around them. And it was my first time going through them on this last trip. It had been a while since I had used that airport and there was a new process for me. I think of myself as a very experienced traveler, as someone that has their security screening protocols down to a choreography.

00;22;47;06 - 00;23;20;01
Daniel Post Senning
And that is it's it's an awkward moment. Definitionally, there's a line of people waiting behind you. So it's a moment where good courtesy dictates that you do continue to move at the fastest rate that you can. At the same time, there are very strict and specific protocols that have to be observed and followed, and for the most part they're very consistent, but they do vary from airport to airport and over time and depending on what little card the person hands you or your child or the person you're traveling with, when you go through the first layer of that screening.

00;23;20;10 - 00;23;22;26
Lizzie Post
Going, you get cards. I haven't even gotten cards.

00;23;23;05 - 00;23;24;11
Speaker 5
So you might have to take.

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Daniel Post Senning
Off your shoes and belts. Sometimes they may send you through a metal detector on the side instead of the microwave scanner.

00;23;31;07 - 00;23;34;08
Lizzie Post
You just don't know what's going to happen until you're kind of up there, right?

00;23;34;09 - 00;23;55;19
Daniel Post Senning
There's a little bit of variability. There are some things that tend to be pretty consistent, but as I learned in Burlington, my last time through, even those things aren't universally consistent. So there is a courtesy around moving as quickly as you can, also listening as well as you can so that your taking direction and you're you're actually hearing and adjusting what you're doing based on the things that you're hearing.

00;23;56;15 - 00;24;16;27
Daniel Post Senning
There is that question of how soon you're capable of getting ready before you actually start to become more of a burden because you're in line holding shoes and belt and a bag that maybe has a laptop that has to come out of it and toiletries that have to come out. I used to call myself a four bin traveler because I knew that I was going to need four bins, maybe five.

00;24;16;27 - 00;24;22;22
Daniel Post Senning
If the person gets really specific and says my shoes, or they need to be in their own bin.

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Lizzie Post
As you dress to be alone.

00;24;25;19 - 00;24;51;28
Daniel Post Senning
Exactly. So that is a long intro to a question that says, I don't have a specific answer about the moment, but I do have some general principles that I think are important. And we've started to introduce a couple of them. One, the awareness that there are people backed up behind you and people for whom time is critically important, people that didn't follow the good advice of leaving enough time to be able to be at peace in that line, however long it takes, or maybe going to miss a flight.

00;24;52;08 - 00;24;52;16
Speaker 5
Or.

00;24;52;16 - 00;24;54;16
Lizzie Post
Got stuck in traffic or something they.

00;24;54;16 - 00;25;00;29
Speaker 5
Didn't see coming. They couldn't leave enough time to navigate the traffic on the way to the airport.

00;25;01;05 - 00;25;03;16
Lizzie Post
So you hear him blaming, Geez.

00;25;03;25 - 00;25;05;06
Speaker 5
Get it, doesn't even you.

00;25;05;10 - 00;25;34;04
Daniel Post Senning
I do think there's also a certain courtesy to, again, to listening, to being ready to doing those things. But then also to the extent that you can, you've prepared ahead of time that you know where your electronics are and where the fluids are hiding out in your bag that someone might ask to see. And that if there are people that are traveling with you that aren't as familiar with this, that you've got them up to speed, or if you're traveling for the first time that you've done a little bit of research ahead of time so that you got some idea what to expect when you hit these moments.

00;25;35;00 - 00;26;12;12
Lizzie Post
Dan I'm also reminded of things like sometimes when we're in a line, it can feel so incredibly pressured, especially a line we often want to get out of. And like you, there are many times where I'm a forbidden person, and especially during the older rules of take off the shoes and take and take out. But I think we still take off the shoes, but doing the toiletries and the electronics separately and all of that, it was there was a lot going on and I would often find it useful to give a quick look behind me before I actually stepped into the zone where I could start loading up on the table and everything and getting

00;26;12;12 - 00;26;28;19
Lizzie Post
stuff onto the conveyor belt, do a quick look, see if there's kind of anyone who looks like they don't have a lot going on. And if I'm taking a while, I'll sort of step to the side and stay at the end of that that table that you're starting to set. And I step on and I'll offer to let people go ahead of me.

00;26;29;00 - 00;26;31;13
Speaker 5
And it makes such a difference.

00;26;31;21 - 00;26;47;05
Lizzie Post
You can feel the relief when someone who sees me with like a big bag and a laptop and a giant bag of toiletries and like boots, maybe lace up boots or something like that, that's going to take forever. It's a big relief. You can hear the relief when you say, Hey, do you want to go ahead of me?

00;26;47;05 - 00;27;03;06
Lizzie Post
I'm going to be a little bit. I've had people do it for me. I've done it for people. I think it is a great tactic to remember that, like, this is not like you have to be in the exact spot that you've been the entire time in line. Like, it's okay if you let someone go ahead of you.

00;27;03;27 - 00;27;29;26
Daniel Post Senning
I like that. I also I like the way you're thinking about interacting with the people around you in just a humane way. And one of my favorite pieces of advice to give people about travel in general and security lines in particular is know that they're coming, know that there's going to be a process of some line waiting involved in getting to your flight and don't don't succumb to being frustrated and annoyed by it.

00;27;29;26 - 00;27;48;12
Daniel Post Senning
If you can help it, if you can keep a smile on your face, if you can be someone who has a patient friendly smile with someone who's struggling a little bit, who has a amused, friendly smile with someone who's found some humor in one of these moments where you're taking off belts and shoes with a bunch of total strangers and trying to navigate this situation.

00;27;49;09 - 00;28;10;16
Daniel Post Senning
There are lots of ways that you can connect with the people around you and contribute to de-stressing the situation in general. And it's a moment where, again, there's some time constraints, there's some, I think, unavoidable psychological impacts to being reviewed and security checked by officials and people in uniform. And going through a.

00;28;11;01 - 00;28;12;04
Lizzie Post
Little nerve racking.

00;28;12;25 - 00;28;27;21
Daniel Post Senning
I think naturally bring up some things in people that maybe aren't aren't always our best, most humane elements of ourselves. But I think that we don't need to fall victim to that. I think that we can we can retain our humanity and our good humor and our good nature in these moments as well.

00;28;28;01 - 00;28;43;02
Lizzie Post
Is amazing how that being aware of the people around you, you know, just taking that minute to look up and see who's behind you, who's ahead of you, it's amazing how much that small act of awareness can do. So much to impact how you end up impacting others.

00;28;43;02 - 00;28;44;00
Speaker 5
You know?

00;28;44;00 - 00;28;54;14
Daniel Post Senning
Absolutely. And everybody has a different best. You know, you might be ready to do your best in this moment. The person right next to you might be doing their best to and that might be short tempered.

00;28;56;04 - 00;29;01;21
Lizzie Post
No, I think this is really an important point. Audience. This is one of those like very good point moments.

00;29;01;23 - 00;29;05;27
Speaker 5
I'm just pointing it out. Then keep going with it. It doesn't mean.

00;29;05;27 - 00;29;24;02
Daniel Post Senning
That that guy who's giving you the direction about what to do, who seems impatient and seems like he didn't notice that you heard him and you're working as quickly as you can to comply and do exactly the thing that he just asked you to do might not be in the kind of good mood and have the pleasant disposition that you would want them to have.

00;29;24;02 - 00;29;29;12
Daniel Post Senning
But that doesn't mean it has to ruin your day or even your experience of that moment or.

00;29;29;12 - 00;29;39;28
Lizzie Post
Ruin how you treat people as you go along the day. You know, it's like you don't want it to be that whole kick the dog thing where one thing leads to being rude to another person, to being rude to another person.

00;29;40;10 - 00;30;05;25
Daniel Post Senning
Absolutely. Who knows what the person before you said back to that person when they gave that same direction that they're mandated to give for the thousandth time that morning. I love this question from Curious Passenger because it's about difficult, an awkward moment and a difficult an awkward moment that they've become a little less difficult, an awkward about you and the question of how you can convey that to other people.

00;30;05;25 - 00;30;22;05
Daniel Post Senning
Whether that's a reasonable expectation to have of other people is to me, an essential etiquette question because it's about how you proceed with grace through moments in life where maybe people aren't meeting you with the same effort and attention that you're meeting them. And those are tough moments. I think it's good to stay focused on them and aware of them.

00;30;22;22 - 00;30;31;01
Daniel Post Senning
And and I think that can help us retain that little bit of grace and and proceed through those moments with our best selves and our best intentions.

00;30;31;01 - 00;30;47;27
Lizzie Post
Curious Passenger Thank you so much for the question. You definitely have a couple podcast hosts here who join you in your frustration and curiosity and we hope we have been able to provide you with a few solutions and suggestions to help make the process a little bit easier.

00;30;49;05 - 00;31;12;13
Old Timey Voice One
As many as 50,000 passengers pass through a major terminal in a day. I get most of them with luggage. There are going to be continually more passengers. These passengers are going to fly more miles and they are going to fly them faster.

00;31;16;08 - 00;31;39;05
Daniel Post Senning
Our next question is titled Befuddled by Bonus. Hi, Dan and Lizzie. I have an ongoing dilemma that I've been seeking a solution to for years. As a freelancer, many clients send holiday bonuses my way, often in the form of cash or gift cards. One client in particular sends a rather large gift card to a retail giant I don't support personally.

00;31;39;05 - 00;32;02;11
Daniel Post Senning
I've chosen not to give this company any of my money due to unfair labor practices, environmental harm and the issues they cause small businesses. Every year I receive a four figure gift card to this retail giant. So far I've stuck to a thank you note and I've used the gifts throughout the year. After all, leaving the money in the pocket of the big guy also doesn't solve my moral concerns.

00;32;02;11 - 00;32;13;15
Daniel Post Senning
Is there any way to shift a gift of this nature? Politely. I've got about 11 months before I can expect another large gift card from this client to the same evil empire China.

00;32;15;08 - 00;32;40;01
Lizzie Post
This is such an interesting question, and it's a really difficult one because we're not talking about a close relationship, a close personal relationship here. We're talking about a business relationship. And the more formalized the relationship, the less we tend at the Emily Post Institute to lean in, to have that candid conversation. At the same time, it seems like a waste.

00;32;40;01 - 00;33;01;11
Lizzie Post
You know what I mean? And I think the client has a clear desire to give you something that would be useful to you. I find I don't have any sample language right now off the top of my head. That would work well for saying to the client, I really appreciate the bonus that you give me. Could you put it in a different form?

00;33;01;11 - 00;33;33;23
Lizzie Post
I just want to let you know I have cut ties with this particular retailer. Even that might not even be bad. But at the same time, it feels like directing someone's very generous gift, directing someone's very generous bonus. You add to it that it's a client relationship and I get even more squirmy when I think about it. I did wonder, Dan, if there was a place in which you could and maybe the timing of when you send this is like a little bit before the holiday season or something like that.

00;33;34;10 - 00;34;01;24
Lizzie Post
I'm wondering if because Joanna doesn't support this particular retailer personally, if that carries over to her business in any way, shape or form. And I just wonder if she's able to kind of in a blanket statement to clients, let them know that she will not be interacting with or participating with this retailer from a professional perspective. And if that might kind of be the nudge that would get them to use a different type of gift card come the holiday season.

00;34;02;18 - 00;34;10;27
Daniel Post Senning
I think as a general question, my answer to that is that that would be fine. It's okay for businesses to do that sort of thing. Okay. My guess is that.

00;34;11;12 - 00;34;11;26
Speaker 5
It doesn't.

00;34;11;26 - 00;34;21;26
Daniel Post Senning
Without without a bunch of other statements of a similar nature, giving it some context that the receiving it would understand. It's in relation to this particular gift that would be my.

00;34;22;07 - 00;34;22;20
Lizzie Post
Maybe.

00;34;22;23 - 00;34;26;20
Daniel Post Senning
My concern there. So it's not a concern about the practice, but.

00;34;26;20 - 00;34;39;26
Lizzie Post
And we don't know the of the freelance work. So it's like if they don't do anything or they wouldn't offer services with this retailer to their clients, then it might be really weird to get like, Hey, I'm not doing some business.

00;34;39;28 - 00;34;44;13
Speaker 5
In this retailer kind of email, you know? Yeah.

00;34;45;18 - 00;34;58;14
Daniel Post Senning
It's tough. This is this is not an easy question because on the one hand you think to yourself, it doesn't really have to be a big deal. Someone would want to give you a gift that you're going to want to use. Yeah. So letting them know what that would be.

00;34;58;26 - 00;35;00;10
Speaker 5
That you don't like retail.

00;35;00;10 - 00;35;17;13
Daniel Post Senning
A helpful thing and, and there should be a way to do it. And I would love to find a good etiquette way to do that but like you that the ground that we're walking on is tough. It's about a professional relationship where in general we're going to say you're going to be careful about how you introduce politics into that discussion.

00;35;17;13 - 00;35;55;17
Daniel Post Senning
Not everyone's going to appreciate it. And in some ways, the concerns, the the moral concerns and the practical concerns with this retailer could be viewed as has some political questions. And so there's that. There's absolutely that level of of care that you want to take with it. And then there's also the question of directing a gift giver that it's not easy to give someone direction about what kinds of gifts to give you if they haven't asked for that, if they're not if they haven't opened that discussion in some way, and maybe they've opened it by giving the same gift repeatedly, and it's a gift that brings up certain strong emotions in.

00;35;55;17 - 00;36;25;18
Daniel Post Senning
You again, I'm I'm sort of laying out all of the caution signs in the hopes that we might find a way to navigate through them to a good solution. But they're cautions lines that I would want to be careful of and be aware of. The other thing that I think is important to say is that you don't have to accept the gift that one of the the choices that you have with something like this is you can, depending on how strongly you feel, let them know if they give you the same gift again, that it's not something that you'd be able to use.

00;36;25;18 - 00;36;30;19
Daniel Post Senning
And it'd be better if they could find someone else to give it to that. This isn't a retailer that you support.

00;36;30;19 - 00;36;41;14
Lizzie Post
You feel like that would be a good way to go with it, that you could kind of like like redirect the gift before kind of accepting it or upon if they mail it to you, like letting them know.

00;36;41;23 - 00;36;44;25
Daniel Post Senning
Exactly and not an easy thing to do, but.

00;36;45;10 - 00;36;48;28
Speaker 5
Especially when you've gotten it in years past or something like that. Yeah.

00;36;49;07 - 00;37;09;15
Daniel Post Senning
And just be as clear as you can how appreciative you are for the gift. The thought that you just honor them and the relationship and the, the gesture, but that you really don't want it to go to waste and that you really aren't comfortable using it and that that to me would be a way that to have that discussion at the moment where it becomes really necessary.

00;37;09;15 - 00;37;23;06
Daniel Post Senning
And again, that would depend for me on how strongly I felt about the gift not being something that I could use at all, and whether or not at that point I would want to open that discussion with the person that had given it to me.

00;37;23;06 - 00;38;02;11
Lizzie Post
What I'm hearing you say is that actually it it seems like this point of receiving it would be the point to refuse it. And rather than like have a conversation, let's say, in June about a potential thing or something like that. What I'm interested in here, Dan, is for something where we said you kind of don't really refuse gifts or you don't tell people how to gift that it's okay for you to decline a gift and that that is different from telling or asking someone, Could you put this into a different format, even though you're essentially saying, could you put this into a different format?

00;38;02;11 - 00;38;30;25
Lizzie Post
You're not, because what you're saying is I can't accept this format that it's been given in. And I do think there is a little bit of an etiquette difference between those two. One is a refusal and one is a redirect. And it's interesting that with something like a gift and we add into the gift mix that it's a gift in in the world of our business life or professional life, that a refusal of the gift actually could be could work.

00;38;30;25 - 00;38;32;09
Speaker 5
Is what I'm trying to say.

00;38;32;28 - 00;39;12;24
Lizzie Post
And on top of it that it doesn't do the thing of assuming a different version of the gift is going to show up, or that you would appreciate it if they did a different version of the gift. So, Dan, is there any stickiness with the fact that this gift has been received in the past? My brain is thinking that even though Jenna's had this policy in her own personal life, that that maybe framing the refusal in a way that not acknowledges I've used the card in the past, but acknowledges this is a the sort of like the first time you're hearing about her not appreciating this particular retailer.

00;39;12;24 - 00;39;34;14
Lizzie Post
You know like I almost want to have it say I've decided that in now both my personal and professional life, you know, I try not to use this particular retailer. So I want to thank you for your generous offer, but politely decline is politely declined the gift and let you know that I am so grateful for our working relationship.

00;39;34;27 - 00;39;45;26
Lizzie Post
I really value you and I am so satisfied with our working relationship. I don't want to like right Jenna out of getting a bonus next year. But when you're.

00;39;45;26 - 00;39;47;28
Speaker 5
Refusing a bonus in a particular.

00;39;47;28 - 00;39;51;23
Lizzie Post
Form, I think that's a little bit of what you put on the table as a potential.

00;39;51;23 - 00;40;16;12
Daniel Post Senning
And all of those concerns are what lead me ultimately to the place where and this is editorial, this is just dancing, getting personal reaction or response to me, The social consequences, the immediate social consequences of declining that gift are awkward enough that I would probably choose to take it or use it in the store, say to myself, I didn't lay this money out.

00;40;16;12 - 00;40;23;20
Daniel Post Senning
Someone else did. It landed in my hands. I'm not going to leave it with the store and I'm going to stay active in other ways. I'm going to.

00;40;23;27 - 00;40;25;06
Lizzie Post
Not use it personally.

00;40;25;07 - 00;40;58;04
Daniel Post Senning
I'm not going to use it personally. I'm going to be willing to talk to the people that I can talk to about the people that I have a close enough relationship with where our political discussions are open and engaged. Well, on both sides. And just again, this is me personally. I'm going to say that the drop in the bucket of me using that I would say is is drop in the bucket enough in a big enough system that I'm going to be okay with that because the the more personal consequence of declining the gift would feel like a bigger deal to me.

00;40;58;09 - 00;41;25;12
Lizzie Post
Dan, I appreciate that personal perspective and I like the fact that you're leaving it there as a potential option. Jenna Whether you decide to start declining the gift or whether you choose to continue to use it, we really applaud the fact that you are considering your own morals and values, how you can most respectfully engage with the people around you when they come into question.

00;41;25;13 - 00;41;27;02
Lizzie Post
Thank you so much for this question.

00;41;27;17 - 00;41;39;13
Speaker 6
How do you go about being thoughtful? What do you do? Every time I try, I only make things worse. Is there some particular method of being thoughtful that works every time?

00;41;41;29 - 00;41;55;06
Lizzie Post
Our next question is titled Cocktail Courtesy Dear A-Team. What is the appropriate way to enjoy the rim, sugar, salt, etc. of a cocktail? I'm assuming licking it with your tongue is not appropriate.

00;41;55;07 - 00;41;58;24
Speaker 5
Lazy. Sorry, I don't know why that makes me laugh so much.

00;41;59;13 - 00;42;02;08
Daniel Post Senning
It's funny because it's probably not appropriate. Right.

00;42;02;14 - 00;42;14;02
Lizzie Post
And it's like your tongue. I just learned that your tongue, like, is a curious muscle. And so it's constantly like, explore in your mouth. And I just the tongue. It's going to want to lick that salt, that sugar, you.

00;42;14;02 - 00;42;15;24
Speaker 5
Know, it's hard not to.

00;42;16;17 - 00;42;44;12
Daniel Post Senning
Well, and as you're laughing and as I'm thinking, yeah, probably you don't want to be doing that. You know what a salt fiend I am. I would find it difficult to leave salt behind and it would be so tempting to lick it or like, sort of remove it with along your fingers. I was even imagining myself, like my three and a half year old, where she sort of like, like, takes her lips and wraps them around the edge of the glass.

00;42;44;12 - 00;42;46;09
Lizzie Post
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

00;42;47;16 - 00;42;49;22
Speaker 5
But what's the right way to do it?

00;42;50;29 - 00;42;56;24
Daniel Post Senning
The right way would be to just subtly turn your glass as you're sipping it slowly. That would be my.

00;42;57;02 - 00;42;57;10
Speaker 5
Yeah.

00;42;57;18 - 00;43;15;03
Daniel Post Senning
Official all table manners etiquette advice is that you enjoy everything that that salty sugary herbed rim has to offer but that you don't make a production out of how you eat off the rim of the glass while you're enjoying your beverage.

00;43;15;17 - 00;43;22;23
Lizzie Post
Then you've got a note in here have been known to use citrus but not recommending it. Can you please tell me how you use the citrus?

00;43;23;02 - 00;43;23;09
Speaker 5
Well.

00;43;23;20 - 00;43;35;00
Daniel Post Senning
Again, you don't ever want to be playing with your food in front of people. And there's probably an answer that's is this my first cocktail or my third cocktail answer? But I don't know. Have you ever taken.

00;43;35;07 - 00;43;37;02
Lizzie Post
A formal or an informal event?

00;43;37;09 - 00;43;40;11
Daniel Post Senning
Exactly. And how many in are the people around me?

00;43;40;18 - 00;43;41;17
Speaker 5
Yeah, exactly.

00;43;42;07 - 00;43;55;00
Daniel Post Senning
I don't know if you've ever used the the the piece of citrus to actually sort of swipe around on the rim of the glass and give yourself like a little bit of citrus as well, or to sort of moisten the edge of the glass if you were going to salt it just a little bit.

00;43;55;04 - 00;44;13;19
Lizzie Post
Sure. So do doing that. But do you take the citrus like I'm assuming instead of using it to get it to stick in this scenario, you'd be using it kind of like a sweeper, like, like, like use it to collect the salt or the sugar and then almost like, like do the do the bite on the on the citrus.

00;44;13;27 - 00;44;14;19
Daniel Post Senning
Absolutely.

00;44;14;23 - 00;44;21;05
Lizzie Post
So it's kind of like when you're taking it to kill a shot and you do the whole lime salt thing, but not exactly because it's from a glass.

00;44;21;15 - 00;44;23;18
Speaker 5
Could be taking a shot without.

00;44;23;18 - 00;44;37;02
Daniel Post Senning
Working, without using your fingers, but using something that's provided. I'm also thinking that behind the bar, if you're setting the drink up that you can do that. You can you can wet the rim with a little bit of citrus before you salt it.

00;44;37;02 - 00;44;43;02
Lizzie Post
But well that, that happens a lot. Yeah. Like but I don't think I would probably especially.

00;44;43;04 - 00;44;44;19
Daniel Post Senning
The process to get the salt off.

00;44;44;19 - 00;45;07;02
Lizzie Post
It to get the salt off it and that's only because then you're you're like your garnish. I feel like if it's like an onion, an olive or the maraschino cherry, it's like, you know, you can that and it's usually provided on that nice little cocktail toothpick for you to do so with that lime wedge or that lemon wedge or that citrus wedge isn't always provided in the same way.

00;45;07;02 - 00;45;11;06
Lizzie Post
Like sometimes it's on the edge of the rim of a glass and then.

00;45;11;08 - 00;45;12;29
Daniel Post Senning
Sometimes it's drop into the better.

00;45;12;29 - 00;45;24;23
Lizzie Post
Sometimes it's into the glass. And so it's like, I would definitely be picky about how I did it and in what company if I tried that method. But I like it because I hadn't ever imagined doing it.

00;45;24;23 - 00;45;42;01
Daniel Post Senning
I'm imagining how your father might answer this question. He's the one who, as a host, would famously offer the dispensation to eat your clams or oysters from the half shell. Yeah, and not to bother with that little fork. Get the juices, enjoy your food. In fact, relish it.

00;45;42;02 - 00;45;47;23
Lizzie Post
Bear in mind, he's also often doing that when he's offering you a plate of them and there's no fork in sight anyway.

00;45;49;15 - 00;46;12;03
Daniel Post Senning
And I could see him thinking, you know, this is this is one of those moments in life where it's more important that you're enjoying and sort of have a convivial approach to being with other people and at the same time, I don't want to completely lose track of the etiquette thread on this question also, that you can take it too far.

00;46;12;06 - 00;46;27;16
Daniel Post Senning
You can go from the Oh, it's okay. It's it's it's a not to formal experience. I'm just having a drink with some friends and you could end up being that person who's licking the glass and someone sitting there wondering what exactly are they doing?

00;46;27;16 - 00;46;43;19
Lizzie Post
Lacey It's a great question. And typically we really do think that the answer is you stick to collecting that sugar or that salt or whatever has been been put on the rim with each sip that you take with that little rotation. And that that's really the most polite way to do it.

00;46;44;03 - 00;46;49;01
Daniel Post Senning
Leslie, thank you so much for the question. We hope that our answer helps.

00;46;52;28 - 00;47;14;07
Lizzie Post
Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463. Or you can find us on social media on Twitter. We are at Emily Post interest on Instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook.

00;47;14;07 - 00;47;29;26
Lizzie Post
We are the Emily Coast Institute. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette your social media post so that we know you want your question on the show.

00;47;30;01 - 00;47;52;27
Daniel Post Senning
If you enjoy awesome etiquette, consider becoming a member of our community on Substack by going to Emily Post dot Substack dot com. You'll get an ads free version of the show access to an ads free version of our entire archive as well as bonus questions and content, including our discussion threads and community. Plus, you'll feel great knowing that you help to keep awesome etiquette on the air.

00;47;53;01 - 00;47;59;00
Daniel Post Senning
And to those of you who are already community members, thank you so much for your support.

00;47;59;00 - 00;48;09;06
Lizzie Post
It's time for our feedback segment, where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover. And today we have feedback from Joan on episode 437. In having too many dishes Dinner.

00;48;09;25 - 00;48;29;06
Daniel Post Senning
High regarding too much food. This happened to me this Christmas. I have a friend who always brings too much food. This year she brought ten different cookies, cupcakes, etc. even though I told her we would only need one or two. One of my relatives was grumbling about this, but I saw it as a gift.

00;48;29;12 - 00;48;29;19
Speaker 5
Oh.

00;48;29;28 - 00;48;48;06
Daniel Post Senning
The charity, with whom I volunteer, had two big upcoming events, so I put a sampling of her gift on the table and then froze the rest to use at these events. She saved this charity money. Even if people don't have freezer room, I am sure there are food pantries or homeless shelters in the area that can use food.

00;48;48;06 - 00;49;02;21
Daniel Post Senning
The shelter by me will even take made meals like meat and veggies if it is marked what day it was made. Check around. People can always use food, especially at the holidays. Thanks. Signed gifts. Better than grumbling.

00;49;03;08 - 00;49;30;16
Lizzie Post
Oh, gifts better than grumbling. This is a great way to look at it. And I want to thank you because I had always been told that some of the food shelves around me won't accept homemade foods, you know, no matter of whether they're marked for the day that they're made. But you've now got me wondering if I can look further to find places that do, because I am that person who often bakes and cooks and bakes too much and would love a place to know that I could go donate it, but had been turned down in the past.

00;49;30;16 - 00;49;47;08
Lizzie Post
So I like the idea that there are some places that do it this way and you might be able to find them by not maybe going directly to a food bank, but instead something like a shelter. And so I really, really appreciate that. We also really appreciate your attitude around the extra.

00;49;47;08 - 00;50;11;25
Daniel Post Senning
Thank you so much for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please do keep them coming. You can send your next question a piece of feedback or salute to awesome etiquette at Emily Postcard. You can also leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463.

00;50;14;19 - 00;50;33;06
Daniel Post Senning
It's time for our Postscript segment, where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette. And today we're going to hear an interview Lizzie did with Emily Le Dao, author of Demystifying Disability What to Know What to Say and How to Be an Ally. Lizzie and Emily had such a good conversation that we've broken it up into a two part postscript.

00;50;33;13 - 00;50;35;00
Daniel Post Senning
Let's begin with part one.

00;50;35;10 - 00;50;58;27
Lizzie Post
I am very excited about our guest today, another fellow ten Speed a Emily Liddell, author of Demystifying Disability What to Know What to Say and How to Be an Ally, joins us to talk about disability etiquette. Emily, thank you so much for joining me on the Awesome Etiquette podcast today. Would you like to tell our audiences a little bit about yourself and your book?

00;50;58;27 - 00;51;15;05
Emily LaDau
Yes. Oh, my goodness. First of all, so excited. This is really cool. I have to tell you, before I tell the audience about myself, that in the book I make a little bit of a joke about how I am Emily Liddell and not Emily Post.

00;51;15;28 - 00;51;16;29
Lizzie Post
I saw that.

00;51;18;06 - 00;51;25;19
Emily LaDau
Nevertheless, now I get to talk about etiquette with someone related to Emily Post, so I'm having a very full circle moment.

00;51;27;02 - 00;51;48;04
Lizzie Post
I'm loving it. I'm absolutely loving it. And I was pleased as Punch when. I saw that in the book. And the book, ladies and gentlemen, is a it's a really lovely book. Obviously, ten Speed does a great job designing things, but I've really appreciated reading it. Can you tell us just a little bit about either why you chose to write it or. A little. Bit about yourself too, so our audience can get to. Know?

00;51;48;04 - 00;51;52;03
Emily LaDau
Yes, absolutely. I know. I just got so excited. I had to mention that before I typed.

00;51;52;16 - 00;51;56;23
Speaker 5
I did too, and I jumped in. I was like, Lizzie, you've got to bring it back to let her finish what you asked.

00;51;58;00 - 00;53;03;17
Emily LaDau
So a little bit about me, I am what I joke as a professional disabled person. I am disability 24 seven It is both a part of who I am. It's my identity, but it's also my career. It's something that I am really passionate about educating about. I really want people to understand disability as a natural part of the human experience rather than as something that we feel alienated by or uncertain around because more than a billion people worldwide have a disability. So this is not a niche topic. This is very relevant. You or somebody you know, whether they identify as such or not, has a disability. And so I think it's really important that we understand how to interact with someone who has a disability rather than kind of curl up into ourselves and feel afraid of it. So that was a big reason that I wrote the book, is because I want to make disability accessible.

00;53;03;23 - 00;54;08;03
Lizzie Post
I really love that because as you write in the book, I think you are very right. A lot of people immediately put themselves on eggshells around the topic of disability. And in reading your book and actually my own experience over the last few weeks, like I even wrote my own eyesight is something I wear corrective lenses and that would be something that without I would be considered unable to see, unable to drive, not able to participate in the world around me in certain ways. And I don't think I've ever had that moment of thinking about it in a very, very, very long time. And so it was just reading some of the intro sections of your book helped me think more even more broadly about some of the folks in my own life who I might not necessarily think of as disabled, but who are technically, from what we're talking about in this book, would be considered that. And so it's a I think in a in a very interesting way, a very inclusive moment to kind of feel like where most of us are in this together. Like this is a big group of people.

00;54;08;03 - 00;54;28;19
Emily LaDau
I love that you brought that up because we don't tend to think about something like wearing a pair of glasses as being assistive technology, but it absolutely is. We all have things that we need in our day to day lives that help us in some way. And we are all interdependent in the sense that we sometimes rely on other people for assistance.

00;54;28;19 - 00;54;41;29
Emily LaDau
And so when we start to look at it as being a very normal part of existence, to need help, to need support, I think that takes away some of that fear that we have around disability.

00;54;43;08 - 00;55;39;17
Lizzie Post
I think it also helps us open up our our brains to the idea of norms and standards and where they aren't inclusive. In fact, just one of the we were talking just before we started the podcast about digital downloads that I've been creating for Emily Post, and I've always loved that our children's programs have the magic words in ASL. But when I was doing our handshake advice, there were a couple of things we've started in the past couple of years, adding If you can't make eye contact because some people can't sustain eye contact, even though that's a very common part of a classic gesture of a handshake. But even the idea of not just having the advice that a handshake is this standard, but instead reframing it as an option, that it is one way of having a respectful and courteous greeting.

00;55;39;17 - 00;56;02;25
Lizzie Post
But not everybody can and not everybody does shake hands. And that actually even goes beyond disability because some people don't for religious reasons or personal reasons. And so it was. I personally like the impact your book is already having on Emily Post advice because it's getting me to think in broader ways about how her advice might come across, where it might not be as inclusive as we want it to be.

00;56;02;25 - 00;56;04;01
Lizzie Post
So I really appreciate it and.

00;56;04;01 - 00;56;06;29
Emily LaDau
This is my kind of etiquette conversation because.

00;56;07;07 - 00;56;07;18
Lizzie Post
Yeah,

00;56;07;18 - 00;56;34;07
Emily LaDau
so. Often I hear things like make eye contact, have firm grip when you have a handshake opportunity. And these are just things that I've come to internalized as being the quote unquote correct way to engage with somebody. But it can make someone really either physically or cognitively uncomfortable. And so that is that really good etiquette. If someone's uncomfortable. The situation.

00;56;34;09 - 00;56;51;07
Lizzie Post
It's a really good question. And is it really inclusive if you're giving instructions about something that not everyone can participate well in and you're claiming this is the most, the best, the trusted. So I just I appreciate the perspective that you're helping us open up here at Emily Post.

00;56;51;25 - 00;57;03;05
Emily LaDau
This is amazing. I love that we're modernizing and creating more inclusive etiquette. And I think that that is so essential because we can get really stuck in our ways.

00;57;03;05 - 00;57;23;19
Lizzie Post
Sometimes we can. Tradition is a beautiful thing. It's an important thing. We talk about how important traditions are on this podcast, and we talk regularly about how important. It is to evaluate them, see how they're working, where can they be adjusted, why did they come to be in the first place? So I'm all about tradition, but it's always worth examining it.

00;57;23;29 - 00;57;24;24
Emily LaDau
Absolutely.

00;57;26;08 - 00;57;47;08
Lizzie Post
Emily There was another section from the book that I really appreciated, and it's actually not your disability etiquette one or one chapter yet, but we are going to get to that audience. Don't worry. But I'd love to start with the section that comes up early in the book where you identify and describe person first language, which I believe our audience is actually really attuned to.

00;57;47;08 - 00;58;05;03
Lizzie Post
They're really familiar with and identity first language and the difference between two, why you might choose one or the other in a given situation. I also personally loved your own anecdotes about how you've wrestled with these two terms and the best way. Is to use them. It was it was very delightful.

00;58;05;25 - 00;58;30;10
Emily LaDau
Everybody wants the standard answer. They're always looking for me to say, Here is the rule that you follow when it comes to language. And I totally understand that because language is really tricky. You don't want to cause harm, you don't want to hurt someone's feelings. But at the same time, language is so deeply personal, it is impossible for language to be one size fits all.

00;58;30;19 - 00;59;03;04
Emily LaDau
And so every time people say, okay, what should I call you? What should I say when it comes to disability, my answer is that really depends on the person, and that is the best etiquette finding out whenever possible someone's preference. But then people will tell me, Well, what if I don't have that opportunity? Sometimes it's a matter of tuning in and listening to how that person might refer to themselves or having a default that you go to and then adjusting if you're corrected.

00;59;03;14 - 00;59;27;28
Emily LaDau
And so in the case of person first and identity first language, an example of person first is to say a person with a disability. And this is really a way within the sentence to separate out personhood from disability. And this came from advocates with disabilities who said, We are so tired of being seen as less than because we are associated with disability.

00;59;28;14 - 00;59;32;11
Lizzie Post
And then the disability is always coming first. And then there.

00;59;32;29 - 00;59;58;01
Emily LaDau
Are people who were only seeing disability and not seeing the whole human. And so then you have disabled people who said disability is part of my identity. You don't need to separate it from me in order to see me as a whole person. I am a whole person and I'm disabled and that is okay. So call me a disabled person.

00;59;59;18 - 01;00;11;22
Emily LaDau
But this gets confusing because you never know which is the right one. And who wants you to say what and who doesn't even like the word disability at all, for that matter? Mm hmm.

01;00;11;22 - 01;00;32;03
Lizzie Post
No. And that was another important point that I thought you brought up early in the book was that some people really appreciate this word, and it was fought very hard for legally. I mean, there's a moment in our history where this was just huge and it was the language and the word that was chosen. And at the same time, not everybody identifies with it.

01;00;32;03 - 01;01;01;28
Lizzie Post
Not everybody feels confident or comfortable with it, or they've found other ways of forming their own identity around the human being, that they are to feel comfortable and confident with. And you're right, it creates this like sticky wicket. It's this moment of like, so do you or don't you? Or how do you and I love what you say about having a couple of go tos that are kind of like your default and being willing to adjust them or redirect them if you need to.

01;01;01;28 - 01;01;08;21
Lizzie Post
And I'm one. I feel like there's also a way you could build. We do a lot of sample scripting here on automatic.

01;01;08;21 - 01;01;30;24
Lizzie Post
IT. And I, I hear people finding ways of saying person with a disability or you know however you prefer to identify. I'm happy to use that terminology and I think it lets someone know that you are trying that you have to start somewhere when you don't know and if you've gotten it wrong, you are more than happy to correct it.

01;01;30;24 - 01;01;35;29
Lizzie Post
And I think in some ways that's kind of the best you can do when you don't know what someone's wishes are going to be.

01;01;35;29 - 01;02;05;15
Emily LaDau
I am still constantly learning and I am someone who is disabled, so I would not expect that everyone's going to get it right all of the time because there's no such thing as right or wrong really, when it comes to something like identity, it's so personal. And for me, I've taken to giving me advice that I would like people to say person with a disability and if they are advised otherwise, then modify from there.

01;02;05;15 - 01;02;36;26
Emily LaDau
But I think that person with a disability or disabled person, if you go for that, tend to be the most straight forward and you're not avoiding the word disability. There's so much stigma that's connected to the word disability. And as much as some people don't like the word disability, there are also many people who feel like if you avoid the term entirely and say something else, that that is equally as much of a faux pas as if you've called them disabled.

01;02;36;26 - 01;02;43;07
Emily LaDau
It really again goes back to preference. But my default is always just say the word disability.

01;02;43;16 - 01;03;07;07
Lizzie Post
It's just another section I really appreciated, which was don't dance around disability like you don't have to create everything around it in order for it to be okay. You had six or five excuse me phrases that you felt really kind of were do in this dance, and I've heard some of them used frequently. And so is it okay if we run through them, if I just kind of like read them out loud?

01;03;07;07 - 01;03;08;19
Emily LaDau
Oh, yes. Let's talk about this.

01;03;09;16 - 01;03;22;29
Lizzie Post
Okay. So differently abled, that is one I've heard a lot. People didn't want the disabled part of disability to feel like like you were somehow limited or a level down from ability or something like that.

01;03;23;09 - 01;03;46;21
Emily LaDau
I have always been so confused, to be honest with you, by the term differently abled, because I feel like it really cancels itself out because everybody has different abilities, whether or not you have a disability. So there is somebody who's really good at solving a Rubik's Cube, somebody who is amazing at singing, somebody who is a world class gymnast.

01;03;46;29 - 01;03;49;12
Lizzie Post
Somebody who's like, we're. All differently abled.

01;03;49;13 - 01;03;53;17
Emily LaDau
Family. The list goes on. Everybody has different abilities.

01;03;54;04 - 01;04;01;16
Lizzie Post
The next one on your list is Handi Capable instead of a handicap, I'm assuming, right? Is that what we're going for here?

01;04;01;23 - 01;04;02;11
Emily LaDau
So.

01;04;02;11 - 01;04;10;22
Lizzie Post
Okay. And you had a very short description. “Audience. Does anyone seriously use this question Mark, please don't.”

01;04;10;22 - 01;04;31;16
Emily LaDau
And it's funny because in most cases I have heard this used in jest or in a joking manner, but there are also really people who think that calling me incapable somehow brings out the capability side of things, and it just makes me feel so patronizing and crazy.

01;04;31;20 - 01;04;48;05
Lizzie Post
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Next on the list was mentally or physically challenged. And this one I find this is really common. Like I had to do my own. Like, okay, this is not like, you know, register. You've heard those terms. Those weren't appropriate when you heard them.

01;04;48;19 - 01;05;11;12
Emily LaDau
So for me, I struggle with these terms because I, as a person am not challenged. The challenge is so often in the environments that we create and then the stigmas that we put on disabled people. And so to call me challenged makes it feel as though I am somehow at fault for who I am as a person.

01;05;11;21 - 01;05;15;24
Lizzie Post
Like the sidewalk was built and you should have been built to use it, right?

01;05;15;24 - 01;05;21;11
Emily LaDau
Like how dare I not adapt to the environment? What's in exactly?

01;05;21;13 - 01;05;40;12
Lizzie Post
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was another one where your perspective on that really helped me understand why this term wouldn't be an acceptable term. A special needs. That's one I grew up with. That was a classic from the eighties and nineties childhood special needs and what are, what's kind of the reasoning thinking This one dances around this.

01;05;40;14 - 01;06;04;07
Emily LaDau
Oh my goodness, this is my least favorite one. Although I think it's time that I give the caveat that if somebody listening prefers this term for themselves, I want to acknowledge I respect that and that I'm speaking totally from my own experience here. But special needs to me implies that somehow my needs are not human and we all have.

01;06;04;16 - 01;06;05;24
Lizzie Post
Be there extra somehow.

01;06;06;11 - 01;06;24;01
Emily LaDau
And I can be a little bit extra like I just want to acknowledge that I make a joke and I'm just going to say and she's going to feel called out for this. But our shared Ed from ten Speed told me to cut this joke from the book, but I'm going to tell. It now. Because I like. It.

01;06;24;01 - 01;06;24;21
Lizzie Post
Okay.

01;06;25;02 - 01;06;37;10
Emily LaDau
My special needs are for you to fan me and feed me grapes and treat me like a princess. Okay. You see somebody agree?

01;06;37;14 - 01;06;45;19
Speaker 5
I think it's a good joke. I think this is funny. Maybe I'm. I don't know, but no, you're right.

01;06;45;19 - 01;06;50;06
Lizzie Post
My special needs are in the category of luxury and spa treatment. Thank you very much.

01;06;50;25 - 01;07;05;23
Emily LaDau
Somebody bring me an espresso in the morning. Breakfast in bed, please. But, you know, the rest of my needs are not special. I'm just a human being who has needs to survive like everybody else.

01;07;06;00 - 01;07;16;11
Lizzie Post
Yeah, they're not additional on top of you are human, and this is how you are interacting with the world around you. Those just simply are your needs. They're not.

01;07;16;16 - 01;07;17;04
Emily LaDau
Exactly.

01;07;17;21 - 01;07;41;09
Lizzie Post
I appreciate that. This one I had never heard before. It's the final one in the list and it was twice exceptional. Help me out. What was the thinking? I don't know. This is this this feels like someone patting me on the head. Like, you know, like, oh, you're special. You you're. You're more amazing than anybody else. Unique creature.

01;07;42;11 - 01;07;44;22
Lizzie Post
Like, that's what I'm hearing from this. How did this one.

01;07;44;22 - 01;08;19;15
Emily LaDau
So this one is really something that comes up in academics, faces a lot, and it's intended to talk about someone who has a disability but is also gifted in certain areas. That's the term they use. And I have always found that to feel very patronizing because it's sort of creating a hierarchy of disability and it's saying this person is exceptional because they can do this and you can't do this, so therefore you're exceptional, you're just disabled, you're differently abled.

01;08;19;19 - 01;08;21;25
Lizzie Post
It's like more separation even.

01;08;22;02 - 01;08;22;21
Speaker 5
Yeah, like.

01;08;23;01 - 01;08;26;03
Lizzie Post
It's like highlighting the wrong features right. Now.

01;08;26;03 - 01;08;46;17
Emily LaDau
And this is something that I was exposed to a lot because I have a physical disability. I use a wheelchair to get around, but I don't have a cognitive disability. And when I was younger, people would tell me, Well, your legs don't work, but your mind is fine. And I used to think that was a compliment. And now I realize that is wildly offensive.

01;08;46;17 - 01;08;56;22
Emily LaDau
Talk about bad etiquette. You're literally pitting me against people with cognitive disabilities and somehow putting me on a pedestal above them.

01;08;56;22 - 01;08;59;11
Lizzie Post
Yeah, no, it doesn't serve anybody, it sounds like.

01;08;59;18 - 01;09;05;29
Emily LaDau
So whenever possible, I really, really want people to just use the word disability.

01;09;07;19 - 01;09;27;11
Lizzie Post
I love that. I really love that advice and I think our audience will also really appreciate. I feel like I'm hearing some collective sighs of relief out there right now, just already knowing kind of why some of these words that and phrases that have been a part of our lexicon for a while now really wouldn't the one to lean in to or the ones to lean.

01;09;27;11 - 01;09;28;04
Emily LaDau
Right. Right.

01;09;28;19 - 01;10;00;09
Lizzie Post
We have to pause our interview here. And if you are interested in learning more about Emily LaDau please visit Emily LADAU. Outcome that's e m i l y L A D A u Dot com. And remember, we'll be back next week with the rest of this interview with Emily.

01;10;00;09 - 01;10;13;01
Daniel Post Senning
We like to end our show on a high note, so we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world. And that can come in so many forms. Today we have a salute from Lizzie.

01;10;13;01 - 01;10;22;07
Lizzie Post
I always feel a little sheepish when we give our own salutes on the show, but we happened to not receive a salute this week. And I happened to have a moment.

01;10;22;17 - 01;10;24;25
Speaker 5
When I really wanted to give.

01;10;24;25 - 01;10;32;12
Lizzie Post
Someone my gratitude. I wanted to pump them up and put them on a pedestal because, my goodness, did they make a difference to my life? Dan, I think you will.

01;10;32;12 - 01;10;33;29
Speaker 5
Know what I am talking about?

01;10;34;18 - 01;11;10;02
Lizzie Post
I was able to work with the folks at Square Up, which is one of the payment gateways that we use here at Emily Post. And I got to Myra at square up who manage. She was so good at listening to the issue I was experi and sensing and she happened to remember that a sister site to square online actually had the feature that I needed and she was able to then me to customer service at the sister site of Weebly where I met Yara and she changed my.

01;11;10;02 - 01;11;13;05
Speaker 5
Life that night.

01;11;13;05 - 01;11;34;26
Lizzie Post
She took so much time. I mean, like we're talking by the time I reached her, I was already an hour into a customer service call and she then took the time to completely get me set up the right way on a weebly website to sell our products on. And I mean, like hand took through the steps to get me there and troubleshoot it.

01;11;34;26 - 01;12;07;19
Lizzie Post
The moments where the platform maybe wasn't behaving quite the way we had expected it to. It was the most unbelievable customer service I have ever had. She was incredibly patient as we tested things together and she was also able to do things like see what was going on on the backend. Once I changed something. Honestly, the two best customer service agents I have ever dealt with Myra because she took the time to really think through and remember experiences that she had had with other clients in other spaces that might benefit me.

01;12;07;26 - 01;12;21;11
Lizzie Post
She didn't have to do that, but she it because clearly she cares about helping the clients who call in. And she really made me feel that way. And then Yara who just absolutely I mean, I started my next day at.

01;12;21;11 - 01;12;25;12
Speaker 5
Work with Dan with a glowing review of these two.

01;12;25;24 - 01;12;52;03
Lizzie Post
Because they really made a huge difference to our business. A moment where I was a bit panicked. They very patiently guided me through everything I needed and we just wouldn't be sitting here today able to launch the digital downloads store the way that it is with the ease and functionality that as if it hadn't been for these two incredible women from the Square online and the Weebly online support teams.

01;12;52;03 - 01;12;59;28
Lizzie Post
And I just I really they they made a huge difference to our business and I appreciate them for it. So big, big salute.

01;13;01;05 - 01;13;12;28
Daniel Post Senning
Courtesy and a call center courtesy on a customer support line. Just a glowing human connection that happens when you're calling for tech support. Couldn't be better.

01;13;12;28 - 01;13;16;10
Lizzie Post
So thank you. And we can't say thank you.

01;13;16;10 - 01;13;20;13
Speaker 5
I can't say thank me for this salute.

01;13;20;13 - 01;13;22;24
Daniel Post Senning
I can say thank you so much for this salute.

01;13;23;18 - 01;13;26;11
Speaker 5
Well, thank you to everybody who's listens today.

01;13;26;23 - 01;13;31;02
Daniel Post Senning
And thank you to everyone who sent us something and everyone who supports us on Substack.

01;13;31;19 - 01;13;44;06
Lizzie Post
Please help us grow our awesome etiquette community and connect with us and share this show with your friends, family, coworkers, The stranger next to you on the subway. However you like to share your podcasts.

01;13;44;21 - 01;14;05;14
Daniel Post Senning
You can send us your next question piece of feedback or salute by email to awesome etiquette at Emily Post WSJ.com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 on Twitter. We are at Emily Post and on Instagram we are at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook. We are the Emily Post Institute.

01;14;06;05 - 01;14;31;01
Lizzie Post
Please consider supporting the show by becoming community member. You can do this by visiting Emily Post dot substack dot com. Or you could also subscribe to the ads version of our show. Engage with our sponsor and simply subscribe on your favorite podcast app. Please consider leaving us a review wherever it is that you listen to the show. It helps our show rankings which helps more people to find awesome etiquette.

01;14;31;14 - 01;14;34;28
Daniel Post Senning
Our show is edited by Chris Albertine, an assistant produced by Bridget.

01;14;34;28 - 01;14;36;27
Lizzie Post
That thanks to.

01;14;37;02 - 01;14;38;13
Daniel Post Senning
Bridget.